Biola University– Dating among high school and college students is decreasing due to emotional intimacy fears, digital distractions, and safety concerns, highlighting the theological importance of relationships.
– Many young men now prefer pornography over romantic relationships, leading to emotional desensitization, weakened human connections, and the need for a biblical approach to sexual purity.
– Easy access to harmful online content poses risks to minors, prompting discussions on parental responsibility, tech company policies, and legislative efforts to enforce stricter digital protections.
– James Harrison, an Australian blood donor, saved thousands of newborns with his rare antibodies, exemplifying selfless service and humanitarian impact.
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] What do we make of the demise of dating among high school and college-aged students? What about the phenomena of sex without women? What happens when men actually prefer porn to full-on relationships? And what about digital gatekeepers for screen and social media? We have a great story that I think will be uplifting to you, an Aussie blood donor who saves thousands of children's lives. These are the stories we'll talk about today, and we'll take some of your excellent questions, as we have every week. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and sitting in for Sean is my colleague in theology at Talbot, Dr. Erik Thoennes. This is a Think Biblically weekly cultural update from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Erik, so glad to have you with us. You, you've been a home run every time you've been on with us, and I know our listeners look forward to hearing from you today.
Erik Thoennes: Thanks, Scott. I always enjoy being with you.
Scott Rae: For... Our first story is from The Atlantic and describes the phenomena of fewer young people getting into romantic relationships. Research indicates that the number of teens experiencing romantic relationships has dropped somewhat significantly. In a 2023 poll from the survey on, Center on American Life, 56% of Gen Z adults said they'd been in a romantic relationship at any point in their teen years, compared with 76% of Gen Xers and 78% of baby boomers. In the General Social Survey, a long-running poll of about 3,000 Americans, found in 2021 that 54% of participants ages 18 to 34 reported not having a steady partner, and in 2004, only 33% had said the same. Now, the study, the article points out that it's not just teenagers, but lots of American adults are withdrawing from romance as well. They point out that a first love can be something like a rite of passage on the way to adulthood that can help people mature and to know what kind of person they are looking for in a long-term relationship. Now, to be sure, young love isn't always a positive thing. It can be abusive, it can distract from other important priorities, but some studies suggest that the lack of romantic activity can even have some benefits, too. One study, for example, found that compared with their dating peers, students who dated infrequently or not at all over a seven-year period were seen by their teachers as having better leadership and social skills and reported fewer symptoms of depression. Now, one of the reasons the article points out for this might be that for Gen Z, the shift in how comfortable they are requires a degree of comfort with emotional intimacy. It may be that they want the connection, but don't, just don't know how to go about it. If you think about it, relationships require being vulnerable, while at the same time, they require this, s- almost an anxiety about getting hurt or being taken advantage of. And more recently, since the Me Too generation has come of age, fears of sexual assault, dating app safety concerns, I think also are factors. Now, Erik, you've been around scores and scores of [chuckles] undergraduate students in the last 20 years. What have you observed among these students, and what do you make of the analysis in this particular article about the demise of dating?
Erik Thoennes: Well, I read these articles when you sent them, and I must say, it really saddened me greatly when I read them. And they all relate to, I believe, the central reason God made us, and that's for relationship, with Himself first and foremost, and then with people made in His image. And because of the Fall, especially, relationships are really difficult and come with all sorts of challenges, as these articles point out. But, I think it's the most fundamental thing about us, that we are created for a relationship, like the God who made us in His image, who is inherently relational in Father, Son, and Spirit for all of eternity. And these crises, I don't think that's too strong a word, are getting right at the heart of why God made us fundamentally, and that's for relationship. And as you say, romantic relationship and dating relationships take work, and you are vulnerable, and you can be hurt from those. And, and there's an anxiety to it and an uncertainty about it. But the thing it requires of us is so fundamental to who we are and how God wants us to grow, that to take shortcuts or avoid entirely, largely be- I think because of so-called social media and the online way we navigate relationships these days, we're getting disconnected from a fundamental way we're intended to be human. And I see it constantly. You and I are of a generation that actually remembers life before, so, online mediated relationships, [chuckles] and it's a whole different world now. And so I grieve for young people who've never known anything but this, and a lot of times don't even know where to start. And so I just think all of, all four of these articles, especially the first three, are a cor- a source of grief and something we really need to push back on. We can't just throw up our hands and say, "Oh yeah, people aren't interested in this anymore, [lips smack] and things have changed." I think as the Church, we need to push back and say, "No, we need to have vibrant, real, face-to-face relationships that really require something of us that's challenging."
Scott Rae: ... Yeah, Erik, I, you know, I suppose you're in the same boat. I re- I remember actually having to call people up to ask them out. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Yes!
Scott Rae: That sound, that sounds so old school today. Um-
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Yeah, and it was tough.
Scott Rae: But-
Erik Thoennes: You had to muster up the courage-
Scott Rae: You did
Erik Thoennes: ... And finally pick that phone up and [laughing]
Scott Rae: You had to script out what your conversation was gonna look like.
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: And it never went smoothly.
Scott Rae: No.
Erik Thoennes: You were always stumbling over your words, and, "Uh, what are you doing this Friday?"
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, it was, it was really hard. Really hard.
Scott Rae: Now, here, Erik, I, your point I think is well taken theologically, about how we're made... We're created for a relationship, and it's part- it's actually part because, God, that's fundamentally who God is. God's a fundamentally relational God, and that's the significance of the Trinity, one of them.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: But does this im- does the fact that we're created for relationship, does that necessarily imply the kind of romantic relationships like this article describes, or do friendships suffice for that?
Erik Thoennes: Well, I think the article does a good job of talking about the challenges and pitfalls with romantic relationships. And, and I've encouraged my kids to not feel like they're somehow incomplete if they don't have remo- romantic relationships. And in some ways, I've encouraged them to not dive into that as if they need those things. Because when you're a full-time student, and maybe you have a sport, and you have other interests, relationships take a lot of time, especially when that romantic element gets added to it, emotional energy, if nothing else. And so I don't think we should overdo the importance of them. But at the same time, as men and women, God's created us for relationship. And I r- I certainly realize that we can be fulfilled, as the Apostle Paul was, and as Jesus was, quite frankly, as single people. I do think God creates us with a desire for the kind of intimacy that marriage alone provides. And so I do think we should be encouraging people down that road without making it seem like you can't be fulfilled and meaning- have a meaningful life apart from it. We have great examples, as I said. So, so I do think we should find relationship, first and foremost, in the family of God, in the Church, where we have true family in those ways. And so we're, we're able to be truly fulfilled in that way. But I do think we should continue to encourage romantic relationships and relationships that are thinking about marriage. It's amazing how that encourages a growing maturity.
Scott Rae: And I think we ought to recognize, too, the New Testament has different words for friendship, for romantic relationships, you know, you know, eros and phileo, two different terms that describe two somewhat different sorts of relationships. Not to say that friendships can't be intimate and require vulnerability. They do. Good ones do, at least. But there's some- there's just something different about a romantic relationship, I think, in terms of the openness and vulnerability that you have to express in order for those to actually go well. You know, Erik, I s- I was reflecting on the experience of my own kids in this. You know, my kids are in their late 20s, you know, early 30s. And, you know, they had, you know, two of them have had, you know, lots of dating experience. Although they... You know, only one of my kids really dated a lot when he was high- when they were high school students. You know, once they became more established, more college and young adults, then they started dating, I think, quite a bit. And I think two of them have found a person that- who's gonna be their life partner, which I'm very encouraged about. But, you know, I, as I look back on that, you know, I think, you know, fears of intimacy and vulnerability are not really anything new. Maybe the degree to which it's happening is new. And I think that often the reason for a fear of commitment, and, you know, my wife can testify of that. You know, I had, I required a therapist [chuckles] to overcome that for myself.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: But there's the, there's this fear, I think, of being exposed as not everything that we're cracked up to be. You know, there's a fear of if you saw the real me, you wouldn't like me, you would r- you would reject me. And there's... You know, that's, that's, I think, a really significant fear that's not, that's not, I think, confined just to adolescents and young adults. I think that's a fear that goes into adulthood. Even people who, you know, who find themselves dating again after the death of a spouse or a divorce, they wrestle with, I think, with some of those very same things. And there's just, as you mentioned, there's just an awkwardness when people launch out into the world of romantic relationships, and I think this is especially true, and this may be a factor for this as well. If you haven't had a good model of loving relationships between parents, then that I think introduces a s- a suspicion about romantic relationships. If boyfriends treated Mom poorly or if, you know, if they fought all the time. And it may be that adolescents and college students want different things from relationships than what they saw in their parents, and that may actually be a good thing if the, if the parents did not provide good, healthy models for relationships.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I think that's so on the money, that with a growing lack of healthy family dynamics and relationships and marriages, it's hard to have confidence that you're going to be able to have one that's life-giving. And so I think that's a great point. And at the same time, I think it's important to realize that it's worth the risk, but I understand why people don't think it is, because of the lack of great examples. But navigating our fallen natures requires the kind of growth that the Holy Spirit provides, and the Gospel enables us to have as new creatures in Christ. I know my wife-... Often will counsel young ladies, and they'll come to her and say, "I think I met the one." And she won't get excited. She, she'll, [chuckles] she'll be cautious about jumping in too quickly, encouraging it. And often, one of her first questions will be, if not her first question: "To whom does he submit? Are there men in his life that he answers to?" And it's a strange question for most people, but my wife says, [chuckles] "A, a young man needs older, wiser men in his life that are speaking into his life, that he answers to," because you don't want to be his ultimate source of authority in, [chuckles] in his life.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes: And I've gotten phone calls, Scott, from boyfriends saying, "Hey, your wife said I wasn't trustworthy." [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: And I said, "Well, are you?"
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: And, and they'll say, "Well, what do you mean?" And I'll say, "Well, do you have older men in your life you're submitting to, you're answering to?" Or you're the, "Well, I submit to Jesus." Well, God actually has human relationships as part of the way He wants us-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... To submit to Him. And so to be part of a broader community, where it's not just you and the, "Oh, you don't understand us," mentality that young people often go into... We do understand you, and your relationship is toxic. We can see that from- [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... A mile away, so.
Scott Rae: Yeah, because we were once one of those people.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] That's right, and we know all the pitfalls. So, so building the kind of integrity and character that's necessary to be able to trust someone is essential. You know, I'll ask a guy sometimes, "You know, tell me about your ideal woman." And he'll go on for 20 minutes, and then my first question always is, "Well, what in the world makes you think she would ever be attracted to you? [laughing] Because that's quite a woman you just described."
Scott Rae: That's right.
Erik Thoennes: And so-
Scott Rae: Yeah, how many of those traits are true of you?
Erik Thoennes: That's right. And, and are you developing the kind of character and integrity where a woman like that would even be attracted to you in the first place, and be able to trust you to lead, to be, a man that she can really depend on in that way? So, so that's the thing. It- we need to be doing work, depending on the Spirit, to grow into the kind of people who are able to navigate the challenges of relationships. And I think it is smart to be cautious, because if you're not at a point of maturity where you're able to navigate the challenges, I wouldn't encourage you to get into a relationship.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Thank you. That's a really good take on this. Here's... Our second story, it, relates to this. This one's also from The Atlantic, and it's entitled Sex Without Women: What Happens When Men Prefer Porn? Now, of course, you know, porn's always been around, but as the article describes, then came the Internet, and that changed everything. Here's the way they describe it: "Here in the Internet, porn was so good, so varied, so ready to please, so instantly and insistently available, that it led to a generation of men who think of porn not as a backup to having sex, but as an improvement on it. They prefer it." And they ask the question, "Where would this take us?" And they say, "Well, now we know. The heterosexual man can now have what many see as a rich sex life without ever needing to deal with an actual woman." Now, sex robots are gonna be here in the next few years, if not here already, and let's face it, as we've al- as we've already mentioned, dating can be hard work. It can be extensive and expensive. Real relationships take effort and vulnerability, risk and sacrifice. But here's how the article describes this: "But today, porn will never reject you or look at you with a pitying gaze," like some women have looked at me. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: "It's always there, it never disappoints," and this, a guy will appreciate this, "you never have to dig through the clothes hamper for something that smells okay to wear on a date." Now, here's the part that really alarmed me on this, Erik: watching online porn has become ado- most adolescents' first sexual experience. The average 14-year-old boy today has seen more hardcore porn than all of the American fighting forces in the Second World War. Now, because of the Internet's power to desensitize people, to wear down their natural responses to shocking things, and because of the way the algorithms work on these porn sites, young people quickly proceed to more and more extreme videos. And as it's always been, these earliest experiences of sexual events deeply pass into their sense of what sex should be like. Now, here, the article concludes like this: "The Internet's biggest by-product of porn in this way is loneliness, and porn isn't special in that regard. You and I weren't made to live that way, and many of the traits that make us human, our compassion, our ability to devote sustained thought to a problem, our capacity to fall in love and sacrifice for the people we love, those are meaningless to the algorithms that rule these sites."
Erik Thoennes: Wow. Wow.
Scott Rae: So this... I say this article really [chuckles] got my attention.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Erik, what's your, what's your take on this?
Erik Thoennes: Well, I did... I had such a sense of grief reading through this article, because I know what a massive challenge, and battle, and problem this is in our society. And I was just telling a young man the other day, that as a kid, I remember two times coming across a Playboy magazine. One, somebody had thrown it into the woods, and I came across it when I was a kid, and another, I went in the bathroom, and there was one in there. Twice as a kid, I came across an opportunity to look at pornography, and now everybody has right on their phones in their pockets-... And this unlimited ability to look at not just the kinds of things you'd find in Playboy, but as the article points out, really perverse things. And, and the increased desire to see greater perversion is a pattern that we've seen over and over again. And so it is a huge epidemic, and the church is not immune to this in the least, and church leaders aren't immune to it. And again, it's related to this previous article we discussed, that we're created for relationship, and relationships are challenging. And, Caitlin Flanagan, the author of this article, she's [chuckles] such a good writer. I'm glad I became aware of her. But as she says, "Down through the ages, one thing united these mass-produced forms of pornography: the understanding that no matter how exciting they were, they were always a pale imitation of the real thing. Any traveling salesman who checked into a motel with a copy of Playboy would rather have had a human being on his arm." [lips smack] And we're actually losing that, because online imagery is starting to take on a life of its own, to the point where not only are... Is it competing with true reality, we actually, as she points out, are starting to think, "Eh, it may be preferable," because it doesn't involve all the complications of relationship. And especially for men, and again, I know women struggle with this, but far more men do, and it creates this disconnect, not only from relationships with women, as we were talking about before, but with an attentiveness to becoming the kind of man that a woman would be attracted to. That, that, w- you're able to get outside of the kind of, beastly existence a man otherwise would fall into. And women do have a beautiful effect in a society that causes men to say, "I need to become a man who's respectable, who a woman would ever want to spend her life with." And, and this is giving the impression that you don't have to do that for yourself or in relationships, to provide the kind of husband and father a family would need. And so there's a tragic result of a disconnect in that way.
Scott Rae: So it's just... You, what I s- I hear you saying is, it's, it's a sort of mutually reinforcing cycle that leads to greater and greater loneliness.
Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Right. And, and like she says, you know, "Next thing you know, that woman's gonna want you to go apple picking." [laughing]
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: She's a very funny, writer-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... In the midst of really showing you how sad this is. But, but it, but it is. It's like, how in the world could we ever think that this fake version of something that God gives us these desires to express in true married relationship, could ever even come close to what the real thing is? But, but that's the world we live in. The, the f- the, you know, according to the flesh, katapsarka, Paul's combating against Corinth, that's where we live. And, you know, the- we... You and I live in Southern California, which you could say is the world headquarters of the pornography industry. And all sorts of people are trying to legitimize this sort of thing, and, you know, sex workers' rights. And, and the Academy Award Best Picture this year-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... Was a movie glorifying prostitution. And so, and that's not real.
Scott Rae: Yeah, so it's actually now incorrect to call it prostitution.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Right. Yeah, and so things that are gut-wrenchingly dehumanizing w- are now celebrated. And, and we need to, oh, see the great value and the dignity of something that is a gross perversion of what God's intended created order is.
Scott Rae: See, I... Erik, I would tell the guys that a really important distinction we need to make: There's a big difference between being satisfied and being loved. And those are two very different things.
Erik Thoennes: So true.
Scott Rae: And I th- and I think we are, we are confusing those categories, and being satisfied with being satisfied, when we're missing out on the real thing, which is being loved. And I admit, my first, my first reaction to this, they said, "If something s- looks and sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true."
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] Right. Yeah, and that satisfaction- ... Is so temporary and, meaningless at the end of the day. I mean, I talk to guys about this all the time. And, and I just say, "P- pornography lies." It, it tells this massive lie that that woman on that screen, who's- has a desirous look, actually has a clue even who you are. And, and we just keep believing the lie. And, and afterward, there's this sense of emptiness, and that lie is mocking me for believing it one more time. [chuckles] And so, it... Yeah, there's a pleasure, there's a satisfaction to masturbation, to pornography, but it's so temporary, and shallow, and a fraud. And it stands up and mocks you after you once again give into it. I think it's one of the greatest, [lips smack] sins that Satan's come up with to distract us from what we're created to be and what sex is intended to be for us. And so the Ecclesiastes vanity of it, when you add it all up, is just tragic. And, and no man feels good about himself after looking at pornography. No person does, because it's empty. You can kid yourself for a while that, "Oh, this is normal." And it's been so normalized. One of my favorite sports writers-... I used to read him all the time. He, he's from the Northeast, he's my age. It's like he's one of my college buddies, and I really enjoy him. But it seemed like every other article, he had some reference to some porn star or some porn movie, as if everybody knew what he was talking about. And, and it was this normalization of this, and I stopped reading him because I didn't want someone having input in my life who was making it seem like I was out of it because I wasn't aware of all the latest pornography things going on.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Now, we've, we've already said that the, you know, the Bible calls us to re- to relationships. We're relational beings. There was relationship in the Trinity before there were, before there were human beings. But the Bible also calls us to flee sexual immorality. And it's so strong that the Bible... The Bible compares that with resisting the devil, but flee sexual immorality. In other words, they, it doesn't, just doesn't describe it as something we should resist, but we should actually flee, because the temptation is so strong. And that, I think, you know, Jesus calls, Jesus calls this essentially adultery in the mind.
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Scott Rae: Where it's creating a... It's creating a sexual fantasy. It's like creating a porn movie in your mind with you as the main character.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: And I think Jesus was, I think, rightly calls that what it is, which is ha- is essentially having a satisfying pseudo-sexual relationship with someone else that you are not entitled to. And I think there are, you know, there are very few things, I think, more satisfying than being known deeply and loved unconditionally by someone else. And it's that grace, not only that God gives us, but that another person gives us, that enables us to face ourselves, face our shortcomings, and is my- in my view, is one of the main ways in which we facilitate our own spiritual and emotional growth.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, and we all know that a healthy sex life is actually not the way you get to a good relationship, but in many ways, the result of it.
Scott Rae: Right.
Erik Thoennes: And, and-
Scott Rae: It's the, it's the dessert, not the main course.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] That's right. And, and, you know, the Hollywoodizing of, [phone ringing] of sex in general, and, the way people in movies just so naturally and easily and romantically it happens. Well, a healthy sex life takes work, it takes communications, it- communication, it takes all sorts of effort, and it's, it's often not anything like what you see in Hollywood.
Scott Rae: Yes.
Erik Thoennes: And so we don't even have realistic ideas and expectations of what that is.
Scott Rae: Yeah. All right, good take on this. That's really helpful. All right, story number three. I think we'll be a little bit more brief on this one. This is... It also relates to the previous story. This one's from World Magazine about the need for digital gatekeepers for screens and social media. That given the ease with which people of all ages can access harmful material, what's the responsibility of tech companies, families, and communities to protect kids and adolescents from some of the stuff that's out there on the web? [lips smack] you know, there are lots of things that kids under 18 can't do, but go online, and most of those restrictions [chuckles] go out the window. You can sign away your privacy rights, you can be whisked into the presence of digital sex workers or sex predators, you can open digital bank accounts, you can access an endless array of dangerous and addictive apps. A new group that I want to call our attention to, called the Digital Childhood Alliance, is focusing their attention on the app... And Apple and Android app stores, where most teens and pre-teens get access to their, to the digital world. Here's the stats they show, Erik, were just chilling to me. One in six children in the US and one in eight kids globally experience some sort of sexual harassment or exploitation online. And this doesn't include the simple viewing of porn online, which you can make an argument that that's exploitive, too. Now, until recently, tech companies have maintained that age verification was not possible technologically, but Apple's had a change of heart just re- and just recently announced a change to its App Store. And according to a law recently passed in Utah, which is being considered in several other states and in Congress, developers, software developers, game developers, can be sued for misleading age ratings. And Apple and Google can be required to verify whether their app store users are age 18 or older, and if they're not, explicit parental consent will be necessary for every single app download and app purchase. Okay? Now, stay tuned. For our listeners, the Supreme Court will likely rule on the constitutionality of such laws later this year. We're hopeful that those laws will pass and be seen as constitutionally consistent. So, Erik, you sent me this story. What's your take on this particular piece?
Erik Thoennes: Well, the thing that was most interesting to me in the piece is h- the way it became evident that these social media platforms and these websites and different things, they will not ever have your best interest in mind in some sort of altruistic way. The bottom line is what's going to drive them, and it became evident that they actually had the ability to limit the use of minors in certain platforms that they just weren't forthright about. And, [chuckles] and so, they'll do whatever's good for the bottom line. Yeah, the documentary, The Social Dilemma, was so-... Fascinating and sad to watch when they pointed out, the brilliant people who designed these algorithms and these platforms, one of the guys pointed out there's, there are only two industries that describe the customer as a user: the drug industry and the social media industry. And, and they don't have your best interest in mind. And so my first thought was, families, parents, why are you waiting around for Google to filter things for your kids? That's never going to be the solution. And so I realize there are families that aren't concerned about this, and families that aren't on the job. But the first thing needs to be, we cannot entrust the hearts and minds of our children to these companies that exist to make money and not to help your child grow into a good, godly person. And so that was my first concern, is there are lots of good ways to monitor what your children are doing, and they may think you're some sort of unreasonable idiot. Well, that's part of being a parent. [laughing]
Scott Rae: Well, well-
Erik Thoennes: If your kid-
Scott Rae: ... Welcome to having adolescents.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Exactly. If your kid never thinks you're an overcontrolling, crazy parent, then you're just not doing a good job. [laughing] And so that was my first thought. Families need to get on the job with these things, and I'd rather give my kid a loaded pistol than an unfiltered cellphone.
Scott Rae: Wow!
Erik Thoennes: It be, I really would. I feel like there's a danger i- because a kid gets a gun, and he knows, "Uh, this thing's dangerous." But you get a phone, and everybody has one, it's all fun and games until you find yourself trapped in the kinds of things we've been talking about this whole time. And so, the first thing is parents, but, we can't wait around for companies to care for our children. We need to do it.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I completely concur, and I think the key here is parents, and I think maybe to a lesser extent, teachers, mentors, the people who are in the lives of teenagers and college students, having the stomach to supervise and to safeguard and to enforce limits, particularly for parents, enforcing limits on the... Our kids' exposure to harmful stuff online. Here's the... To think biblically about this, it str- it struck me that the Bible calls us repeatedly to watch our intake of what goes in, not just what goes into our stomach, but what goes into our mind and our heart. You know, Matthew 12 and Luke 6 all describe this notion that out of the mouth speaks that which fills the heart. And Jesus is really clear that what defiles us is what we take in to our soul and what comes out of the heart. And Philippians, Paul in Philippians challenges us to think, you know, focus our mind, to think on the things that build us up, not the things that tear, that tear us down.
Erik Thoennes: That's right. And David said, "I will, I will set no vain thing before my eyes." So it's not even just immoral things, it's empty things. And I think time limits are incredibly important as well as content limits. Because, talking about the relationships and the challenge of leaning in and helping relationships grow better, I watch young people constantly, church is over, they stand up, the first thing they do is not meditate on the message they just heard or move toward people in fellowship. They whip out their phones, and they completely avoid the social challenge in the moment and don't grow relationally, personally. In my classes, I used to walk in, and there'd be a just a buzz of, "Hey, did you do the reading? What'd you think? What'd you do this weekend?" And now it's quiet when I walk in.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And when class is over, we just talked about the atonement for an hour, and they're back on social media immediately. So it's not just immoral things, it's really, how many cat videos do you need to watch? To, [laughing] for-
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: It, it... And so it's the waste of time, it's the dilution of quality in our lives with all the empty things that troubles me deeply as well.
Scott Rae: Yeah, and that's not to say there aren't, there aren't appropriate times where it's okay to, you know, just turn off your brain for a little while.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Just when you've been concentrating on a lot of other things, and, you know, that can be, that can be a form of rest. But I think to make sure that that doesn't sort of take over all of your rest and leisure time. [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: And, and I would also-
Scott Rae: That's a different thing.
Erik Thoennes: That's right. But I would also add there are better ways to rest. That, that... I think scrolling is actually not restful, not the kind of rec-
Scott Rae: No, it can, it can be very stressful-
Erik Thoennes: That's right
Scott Rae: ... For some.
Erik Thoennes: Exactly. And so, again, you feel like, "I'm not accomplishing anything." You know, it's funny, it's March Madness weekend, where guys are gonna, and women are gonna consume massive hours of watching people work hard [laughing] and-
Scott Rae: That's right
Erik Thoennes: ... And exert themselves, where all these millions of people are sitting on a couch doing nothing.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And you crawl out of hours of watching other people be productive, feeling like a loser, because you are a loser-
Scott Rae: That's right [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: ... Because you haven't done anything meaningful except watch other people produce things. So, so yeah, the entertainment culture, the spectator culture disengages us from the kind of being-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Fruitful and multiplying God creates us for.
Scott Rae: Yeah, my mentor used to, used to describe professional football... He was the chaplain for the Dallas Cowboys. He used to describe the NFL as 22 people desperately needing rest and 60,000 people desperately needing exercise. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] That's right. That's right.
Scott Rae: He might have been onto something. Well, I'd encourage our listeners to stay tuned for what the law will prescribe, granted, the law is not gonna do everything, but I think it could be a very encouraging note, to see what'll happen, especially if the Supreme Court rules on this.... All right, Erik, now we got one other story that's, an uplifting story to end with, I think to let, to let our listeners know that there are still virtuous people doing noble things out there in the world. [lips smack] This is the story of an Australian gentleman by the name of James Harrison, who died last week at the age of 88. And he was well known for being, for being, quote, "The man with the golden arm." Okay, now he was not a pitcher or a tennis player or anything like that. He was a blood donor that saved and will continue to save thousands of children's lives. Now, from the, from age 18 until the age of 81, he donated blood every other week in his life. Oh, almost 1,200 times he donated blood. Now, to be, to be clear, his blood was a little different than yours and mine, because it had a really valuable antibody in it that scientists used to create a medication that protects mothers and their unborn babies from potential complications [lips smack] during pregnancy that can arise if mom and baby have different blood types. And now that's not all that common, but doctors can't predict when it happens. And so the medication is being given now to all... Or are being offered to all pregnant women in Australia to potentially combat this, complicating situation. There are now about 200 of these donors down under in Australia who have this antibody, and even now, scientists have created a genetic, or syn- sorry, a synthetic version of this antibody, and they've nicknamed it James in a Jar. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: I love, I love this story.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And so this, you know, this gets into, I think, some of the discussion we're gonna have in, and when the questions come about what constitutes being heroic. This, I think this, in my view, qualifies as that. Just an extraordinary self-sacrifice on this gentleman. Erik, you sent me this story. This obviously got your attention for some reason. Tell me about the reason.
Erik Thoennes: Well, I do. I love this story because there's even a photograph of him in the story, and he's in a chair about to get jabbed, and he's got a huge smile on his face. You can just tell he knew how special it was that he had this gift. And you have to wonder, you know, how many people would have been willing to give blood e- over 1,100 times in his life? And you could tell he loved this ability he had to be so incredibly helpful, and to the point where [chuckles] they call it James in a Jar now. And so I just, I love his, the generosity. Now, on one hand, you could say: "Well, you have the ability to save lives, of course, you're going to do that," right? Why would we put him in some special category? Who wouldn't do that? Well, a lot of people [laughing]
Scott Rae: Wouldn't do that.
Erik Thoennes: And I actually do think he's kind of rare in his eager willingness to use a gift he had in that way to bless the way he did. And so I just love the generosity that he had in his life. But I also was thinking that we have, in the Gospel, the words of eternal life, not just what will prevent you from getting sick physically, but we have the words of eternal life in the Gospel of Jesus, and we should generously, joyfully, be giving that away to people as much as possible, because that's an even greater solution and a greater gift that we could give to people than even James was able to do.
Scott Rae: Yeah, you know what I wonder... One, one thing I wonder with this story is, I s- I doubt that hardly any of the kids whose lives he saved have ever come back to thank him.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] I bet you're right. Yeah.
Scott Rae: And-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... And but what it shows is that he continued to do this without ever receiving a whole lot of gratitude for it.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, yeah.
Scott Rae: He just did it because it w- it was right, and he could help people, and it was, it was giving him, you know, incredible satisfaction to contribute to people's lives, even if they never knew about his contribution.
Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Yeah, that, you know, that is a great point, that we serve and love and seek to bless others, not to be recognized, not to, get applause, but to be helpful. And, and you're right, there's a humility in the way he went about this. You're right, there are probably a few Red Cross workers who know this- who knew this guy before [chuckles] this article came out when he died. But, but you're right, that is a beautiful, humble way to serve.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I think now that he's passed away, it's actually too late for somebody to come and say thank you, now that it's become more public.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] That's right.
Scott Rae: So, but I think it's a very encouraging story. We've had... You know, so far today, we've had some stories [chuckles] that are enough to depress you pretty significantly.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: We felt like you needed one to say, "Hey, you know, there's still good out there in the world. There's still good people doing noble things that benefit the common good." [lips smack] All right, shall we answer a few questions?
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: We've got-- we have some really good questions, and I just want to say, on this first one, we've had so many... A number of our listeners have responded to the comment that I made a few weeks ago about whether or not we should refer to adoptive parents as heroic. And we so- first of all, we so appreciate all of you who were, who were, who touched by that and have... We've had a variety of different responses to this, and, all, what all of them have in common, Erik, is they've all, they've all been, I think, very emotional, and people were pretty emotionally invested in this particular topic. So here's, one listener put it like this: "My wife and I, my wife and I were physically unable to have children, so adoption is the means by which we could. So we don't see it as heroic."... Another one stated, this, I love this particular point: "No heroes call themselves a hero, and few accept the title." So it takes us to call out the people who are acting heroic. Here's another comment we got: "We don't think of ourselves as heroes, but as followers of Christ. He called us to adopt, and we obeyed. The real hero here is the Lord, who guided and sustained us in this calling." And here's one more who put it this way: "My wife and I adopted a child, but I don't think of myself as a hero. At the same time, I think it's very appropriate to use the term hero for someone who chooses to raise a child in our current culture of death. So if others wanna call me a hero, go for it. I won't let it go to my head, because all honor goes to King Jesus." So Erik, you're an adoptive parent. We mentioned this, a week ago when we told people you were coming on with us. You've adopted four kids. W- give us your thoughts on the idea of adoption being a heroic rescue and calling adoptive parents heroic.
Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Well, I think it's important to realize that there isn't just one kind of adoption. There isn't just one sort of situation. Quite frankly, there are people who adopt, who it seems to me, you know, celebrities who adopt a child from Somalia and then hire a nanny to primarily raise it, and maybe they're just virtue signaling. [laughs] So, so they're not heroes-
Scott Rae: Certainly a possibility.
Erik Thoennes: Yes, they're not heroes at all. They're just virtue signaling. So, so you don't wanna say, "Well, anybody who adopts fits this category, any adoption situation fits this category." But, but I just... I think, I think there's a great point in saying, no hero sh- is running around saying, "I'm a hero. You better call me a hero." but I think that the definition of a hero is simply, here it is, a person who's admired for courage, outstanding achievement, or noble qualities. And so certainly, no one should wanna run around wanting that title or that kind of recognition. But at the same time, [lips smack] I think as Christians, in very Kingdom of God-minded ways, we should seek to be examples. We should seek to be exemplary in our willingness to live out Christian values like self-sacrifice, like choosing to make your life at times considerably harder because of your desire to show the love of Christ, to love Him the way He loved us. The, the verse we use for our orphan care ministry at our church is, "We love because He first loved us." And, and adoption is this amazing opportunity to rehearse the gospel, because we were all orphans, unable to solve our orphan condition, until God adopted us into u- His family, and we're able to call Him, "Abba Father." And so the ter- the word isn't important that we use necessarily, but the values that drive something, like a Christian who wants to help a child, and at times can make your life much more challenging in ways you didn't have to, there is something admirable and exemplary about something like that, whatever that may look like. I mean, we have friends who have four biological children and six adopted children, who all have significant disabilities, and they're heroes to me. They, they're amazing examples. And, and we have missionaries in our church who are serving in Baghdad and Afghanistan, and there's something heroic about that to me. And I don't want to say, "Oh, you know, there's nothing special." No, there is something special about people who set the bar in a way that challenges and encourages us to live in Christ-like Kingdom-minded ways. And most certainly, Jesus gets the credit. It's all grace. It's all grace. We're, we're doing not a... Nothing close to what He did for us. And so I, and you know, I- there's a book called Boasting by Josh Moody. We're commanded to boast in the Lord. We're commanded to, not boast in riches, Jeremiah 9, not boast in wisdom, not boast in power, but- and might, but that you know and understand God. So there's something about recognizing, "Hey, God's working in my life. God's using me. God's enabling me to glorify Him in my life." And I don't want to appeal to some kind of humility, where God's not getting the credit from our lives He should be getting. And, and so I don't wanna, I don't wanna rule out this idea that, "Would you look at how God's using us?" And, [lips smack] and not minimize that, so God's not being glorified the way He should be.
Scott Rae: [lips smack] Yeah, I think there's, [clears throat] there's an element to this. I think that... I think, you know, no heroes call themselves a hero, and I think that's sort of, you know... If you, if you call, if you call attention to your humility, for example, you've just undermined-
Erik Thoennes: [laughs]
Scott Rae: -the whole, the whole trait.
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Scott Rae: And I think that, I think that's sort of what this person is getting at here. And I real- what I so appreciate about your response to this is not only given this is, this is your experience, but it's also framing what we mean by heroic in kingdom terms. And that's, I think, that's what's so helpful about this, and so I appreciate this. Our second question is related to this, but it's on the other side of adoption. It's, it's talking about women with unwanted, with unwanted pregnancies and crisis pregnancies. So here's the way the question reads: "In our culture, when a woman faces a crisis pregnancy, the options all look terrible to her. Adoption is the worst possible solution. Parenting is second worst, and unfortunately, u- abortion is the least worst option in her mind."... If we wanna shift these cultural attitudes toward adoption, we need to change how we speak about it. No one should say the words, "She gave up a baby for adoption." [lips smack] We should say something like, "She made an adoption plan for her child." With this language, the control of her child's life and the future is in her plan. This adjustment to our rhetoric can contribute to the psychological shift our cultural needs. What are your thoughts on this idea?
Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Well, again, the language, I think, needs to fit the situation, and to sort of just make blanket, you know, prescriptions about the way we're- ... We're supposed to talk about things, I, sometimes doesn't appreciate the very different circumstances that [lips smack] situations reveal. So I think adoption is, in foster care is a glorious way to minister. I'm thinking especially of Christians who have a theological motivation and perspective on this. But something we're very aware of in the lives of our four children we've adopted, is adoption is a glorious thing, but it's also a tragic thing. There's something tragic about, a birth mother and father not being able to raise a child that shares their DNA. There's something tragic... There's a, there's a tremendous loss there. And I understand wanting to be incredibly encouraging, and supportive, and sympathetic to the dilemma some young women are in, but some women have children just in serial ways and give them up for adoption. And, and so i, I think you can sugarcoat situations if you use certain terminology at times that don't fit the situation. And so, yeah, I think it needs to be particular. I'll use whatever term someone thinks I should use-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... For their particular [chuckles] situation, but I wanna, I wanna have a sophisticated understanding of how complex certain things can be, and how different some situations can be than others. And, and I also want to encourage responsibility, so these situations aren't created in the way they are sometimes. We have friends who, quite a few friends, who've adopted several siblings from a woman who just keeps having babies she can't take care of. And, and so it... We also wanna say, "Oh, that's not ch- not- that's not just a perfectly good option and plan she came up with." That's something we need to take very seriously.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Garrick, I wanna make, I wanna make sure that we see adoption in the same way that scripture does. Because, you know, adoption is the primary, and I think most commonly used figure of speech, to describe our relationship to God. We've been adopted into His family. And I, you know, I remember I had a... I was with a couple not too long ago who was infertile, couldn't have kids, and they were- they w- she was pushing her husband to go for a sperm donor. And she says... As soon as we sat down and she told us their story, she said, "Adoption's off the table. I don't wanna hear about it." And I should have stopped right then and said, "Well, what makes that off the table?" [lips smack] And I think it was because they wanted to, quote, "have their own child," and that's biologically connected. But I should have reminded them that adoption is something really noble in the scripture, I think on both sides. Because, you know, adoption is that is the main figure of speech used to describe our relationship to God. And I'd wanna know, you know, what is it that makes adoption the worst possible solution? Because the... Here's... And, and I think the pro-choice movement capitalizes on this when they say, "Well, you know, you pro-life folks, you just sort of, you know, easily and casually recommend adoption to anybody who's got an unwanted pregnancy. So you have no idea how hard adoption is for people." And n- that's, that's not, that's not true. We do understand that. But my question is, what is it that makes adoption so hard? And I think the r- what makes it so challenging is that women actually bond to the babies that they're carrying in the womb. That's a natural thing, and to turn that off, I think is, you know, something we would never recommend. And the reason i- that people bond, you know, you bond to a person, not to a thing. What that suggests is that the baby she's carrying is actually a person with whom you are capable of bonding, not a clump of cells or something akin to a piece of tissue. And that, I think that bonding and relationship is really important to recognize, and I think that's, I think that's the main-- one of the main reasons that, having... Making an adoption plan for a child is as challenging as it is.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, and I... As, as I heard that adoption's the worst option, well, for the mother, yes, but because you don't realize how hard giving a child up for adoption is. Well, I think we also don't realize how hard it is to be killed, [chuckles] as abortion would produce. So, b- and I do... I love how many times I've seen- ... A mom, a birth mom, whose child is adopted, end up with an amazing relationship with the adoptive family. Sometimes they're closed adoption, sometimes they're open, though. And I've... In our own church, we have amazing ministries that go on to not just the birth mom, but the whole family, and, I'm over Thanksgiving. It's, it's just beautiful the way, again, you make your life much more [chuckles] challenging and complicated, and sometimes that's not best for the child you adopt. But it is amazing that God contrasts Himself with a nursing mother. He says, "Even if a nursing mother abandons her baby, I will never leave you." So He's recognizing there, just what you were saying, Scott, that there's a bond that's even at a hormonal level, and a psychological and emotional level, that again, leads to a tragic separating of-... Of a mother and a, and a child that we need to recognize as well. And so I think you're right. And Packer says that, "It is a great thing to be forgiven by God, and an even greater thing still to be made righteous by Him, and an even greater thing yet still to be adopted by Him," because that moves us beyond the forgiveness of a judge and the righteousness of a judge, to a, an intimacy of a, of a father-child, mother-child relationship that is awesome. It, it takes us right into that kind of fellowship with God, beyond just being forgiven. So it is a beautiful concept that, again, we rehearse in the Bible, biblically, every time we carry that out on a human level.
Scott Rae: Hear, hear. Thanks to the late J.I. Packer for that insight.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: That's great stuff. Erik, our final question today is from someone who I think m- we were anticipating maybe what we were talking about in the first couple of stories. He says, "I'm in my 30s, been happily married for three years, and we're start- we're trying to start a family. However, our efforts have been thwarted by a noticeable decline in my own sexual drive. When we were first married, we enjoyed a regular, fulfilling sex life, yet now that I find my sex drive is diminished. It's frustrating, to say the least, and I've researched possible causes, but can't identify anything that fits my circumstances. I struggled with porn in my pre-Christian past and still battle with lust, but by the grace of God, with the help of an accountability network at my church, I have a healthy marriage in this area as well. What practical advice do you have for someone like me? And beyond practical advice, how can I think biblically about this, as it's really weighing on me? You've stated in Christ that there is no condemnation. We should not view suffering as a punishment from God, but rather as a consequence of our own sinful actions. Is this an example of the lingering effects of sin? I'm hoping you'll be able to provide some wisdom to help make sense of this." we probably need to be a little bit brief on this, we, since we've talked about some of the things, some of the complicating parts of this already in the first two stories.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I thi- I think this requires some really good counseling for this brother and his wife, and trying to figure out what's going... It could be an effect of ongoing shame or, a numbing effect that pornography can have. It, it could be lots of reasons, so I'm not sure. I would wanna really, have this couple get some good counseling and get to the bottom of it. But I certainly, on one hand, wanna realize that there are devastating effects sin always has on us, even at a neurological, psychological, emotional level, and relational level. But the other side of that is there's power in the Gospel and the power of the Spirit to free us. I mean, the fact that Paul could say to the Corinthians, "I've betrothed you to one husband, and I want to present you to him as a pure virgin," in light of how horribly [chuckles] sinful they had been, is really hopeful.
Scott Rae: Very, very good. And I would... The only thing I would add to that is probably a full medical workup would probably be appropriate as well, 'cause there may be, there may be medical issues that, have not come to light. So appreciate all of these questions, and ke- we encourage you to keep them coming. Erik, thanks so much for being with us today. This is great stuff. Really appreciate your insight, and really good takes, both practically and biblically and theologically.
Erik Thoennes: You're welcome, Scott. Always good to talk with you, brother.
Scott Rae: This has been the Think Biblically Weekly Cultural Update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and online, including all kinds of master's programs in apologetics, philosophy, spiritual formation, Old and New Testament, systematic theology, and undergrad programs in Bible theology, apologetics, and an accelerated Bible theology and ministry program that allows students to earn a bachelor's and master's degree together in just five years. [upbeat music] Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. To submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover, or guests you'd like us to consider, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu, that's thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app and share it with a friend. And join us on Tuesday for my and Professor Tim Muehlhoff's interview with Pastor Chris Brooks on the legacy of Martin Luther King Jr. Thanks so much for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]
