Biola UniversityScott is joined by Erik Thoennes to discuss:
- Religious Elements in Presidential Inaugurations: A discussion on the profound embedded in the U.S. presidential inauguration, highlighting the inclusion of clergy, prayers, and hymns, and their connection to America's cultural and historical fabric.
- Christian Players in the National Championship: Exploration of faith in sports, as prominent Christian athletes , raising questions about divine intervention and faith's role in competitive events.
- Moral Intuitions of a Liberal Atheist: Reflection on a liberal atheist , surrogacy, and prenatal ethics, demonstrating how moral intuitions often intersect with theological principles.
- The Ethics of Hormone-Blocking Drugs: Tackling the complex issue of administering hormone-blocking drugs to sex offenders, balancing public safety with ethical concerns and the individual's dignity.
- Hostage Negotiations and Just War Theory: A deep dive into the moral and theological principles surrounding hostage deals, weighing the sanctity of life against potential future consequences.
- God’s Sovereignty in Human Affairs: Insightful discussions on God's role in both monumental and mundane aspects of life, encouraging trust in divine wisdom amid human uncertainties.
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] How do we explain all the religious elements surrounding the inauguration of a new president in a supposedly secular society? How should we think biblically and theologically about the Notre Dame and Ohio State players invoking the name of God in the national championship game? And a longtime liberal atheist has second thoughts about the sanctity of life. We'll address these stories and answer some of your questions that you've sent in to us. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and sitting in for Sean, who's traveling today, is my colleague in theology, Dr. Erik Thoennes. This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural update from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Erik, glad to have you with us today. Thanks so much for hanging with us and joining in today.
Erik Thoennes: Good to be here, Scott.
Scott Rae: Hey, the news this week obviously has been dominated by the first few days of a new administration, but... And we'll have something to say about that, but this is also a reminder that there's other news out there that's happening that's also worth talking about. But first, on the inauguration of a new president. On Monday, the same day that we remember the contribution of Martin Luther King Jr., we got a new president, and just one day after the nationally recognized Sanctity of Life Sunday. Now, you sent me this story from the Pew Research Group about all the religious elements in the o- in the inauguration day, port... Well, two days, really, about 48 hours, and it's a whole lot more than I thought. They include a traditional pre-inaugural prayer service, six different clergy, plus the Mormon Tabernacle Choir participating in the inauguration itself. The president was sworn in using two Bibles, one the Lincoln Bible and one owned by MLK. The oath of office closes with the phrase, "So help me God." That hadn't always been in there, but in more recent years, it's been included. And on the day following the inauguration, there's a prayer service for the country at the Washington Natural Cathedr- National Cathedral. So Erik, tell me specifically, sort of what caught your attention about this particular story?
Erik Thoennes: The whole time I was watching it was, it was all of those elements, six clergy, part of that, giving prayer, and benediction, and invocations, and even the songs. I mean, that article didn't mention the songs. So we start with the Battle Hymn of the Republic-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... Which is so profoundly theological, incorporating theology into a very political situation in the Civil War. And so... And then Carrie Underwood, when she nobly went a cappella unexpectedly, [chuckles] she's singing God Shed His Grace on Thee. And so [chuckles] it really is amazing how woven into the whole ceremony there is this, not just Christian theology, but religion. Like you said, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, there are rabbis, there are imams involved in these sorts of things, and the next day with the prayer service. It, it really is amazing. You hear so much about the nuns who are leaving religion as in the younger generation, and how secularized we've become and post-Christian we've become, but there's something so embedded in our culture, and in our traditions, and our history, that it's almost impossible to remove them if, even if you want to. I just imagined really committed atheists who have their view of separation of church and state just smacking their foreheads during the whole thing, how [chuckles] woven into it all God was. And so I was rejoicing in that, and it's not just that. I mean, everybody who grew up in this culture around Christmas time may wanna secularize Christmas, but Linus quotes Luke 2 every year in the Charlie Brown Christmas story [chuckles] and he just goes out, and he tells us what Christmas is all about. And so you... It's so embedded that it's there, and so I rejoice because I do think it gives us opportunities to highlight how essential God is to everything in life, and in the way of thinking in our country, that embeds in the founding documents that all men are created equal by a God who's given us the rights He has, and so that's good. The, the challenge I have in it is those things can become just a way of having historical connections and gravitas added to something, rather than actually having the meaning they should have. And so I'm always torn a bit when these things get so embedded that they can actually lose their meaning. I always think about this when someone who is completely not religious asks me, who is very religious, to do a wedding for them, instead of going to a justice of the peace.
Scott Rae: Be careful what you ask for.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] That's right, exactly. And I said, "Well, let me tell you what marriage means to me, and if you're asking me, and not just a judge, let me tell you what this is going to be." And a lot of times they want it, but I think a lot of times they want it just to give it some weight-
Scott Rae: Right
Erik Thoennes: ... More than just... It just seems trivialized if you just [chuckles] go to a justice of the peace, and they want it to have weight. But our theology needs to be more than gravitas and weightiness. It needs to maintain the meaning all those words have biblically for us.
Scott Rae: Yeah, 'cause it's... I think the cynic would say, "You know, this is just, it's just tradition. It's just civil religion. It's not really explicitly Christian."
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: But that's, that's, those... That's not really true.
Erik Thoennes: Right?
Scott Rae: Though, the, if you listen carefully to the words and, you know, the prayers that are offered, some of those, some of those prayers were o- well, they were distinctly and overtly Christian.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: And I think this is not the first time we've seen this. Just, you know, last summer, when the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris was reopened, you heard Europeans saying much the same thing that you are, how Christian faith is embedded in the-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... Traditions. And even as secularized as Europe is, those traditions have a very stubborn way of sticking around.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, it is an interesting time, isn't it? As, as I do think secularism a- is having an increasing effect. Even avowed atheists are saying, "But I sure like Christian culture in some ways." And we c- [chuckles] we can talk about this at some other time, but there are th- I have a neighbor who loves Christians. He's not one, but he says, "Man, you guys are the fabric of our society. Keep up the good work." [laughing] And he wants us doing our thing, even though he doesn't hold to it.
Scott Rae: He's echoing folks like Richard Dawkins-
Erik Thoennes: That's right, yeah
Scott Rae: ... And, you know, and Elon Musk.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I remember a friend of mine-... I met, a very well-known musician one time who's not a Christian or religious at all, and he said to my friend, "What do you do?" And he said, "I'm a pastor." And it was actually James Taylor, and he said, "Oh, I love Christianity because of what it's done for music." He said, "We wouldn't have the music we have-
Scott Rae: Yeah, exactly
Erik Thoennes: ... If it weren't for the church."
Scott Rae: Thanks.
Erik Thoennes: And so he realizes this incredible debt he owes-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... To theology and Christian institutions, even though he doesn't personally align with them.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I think, I think you can make a decent argument that Handel's Messiah might have been the greatest piece of music ever composed.
Erik Thoennes: Written in a breathtakingly short amount of time.
Scott Rae: It is.
Erik Thoennes: It's just-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Yeah, amazing.
Scott Rae: Now, there was a related story in The Atlantic on the inauguration about how to pray for the new president. We're told to do that, but how do you do that, especially if the president is not somebody that you were hoping was gonna win the election? And so you would have to wrestle with this question in 2020 or today. And the author of this piece in The Atlantic put- he puts it like this. He said, "I will pray for Donald Trump just as I prayed for Joe Biden before him. I... We pray for our rulers and those in authority because the more power a politician has, the more influence he wields in people's lives. Those prayers ought to have a certain focus that our leaders use their power wisely to protect the vulnerable and establish justice for all." How, how are you gonna pray? How are we- how are you encouraging the people in your church to pray for our, for our new president?
Erik Thoennes: I think similarly to the way the author of that article would say we should pray generally, that truth and justice and the ways of God would be represented by these leaders, who may or may not be Christians, but because of general revelation and people being made in the image of God, we have the ability to be wise in practical ways and in political ways. And so to pray to that end, I want, I want it to be on Earth as it is in Heaven, even before that's a full reality. That we're told to pray that way, that there would be kingdom realities being worked out in our world, and I think representing our King means we represent what He cares about and what He values, and we want our leaders to represent those things as well. Sometimes in spite of a conflicting worldview they may have, they can [chuckles] arrive at truth and wisdom anyway. And so I... We're supposed to pray for all. Think about when the commands to pray for our leaders were written in the New Testament.
Scott Rae: Yes.
Erik Thoennes: You got guys like Nero running around. [laughing]
Scott Rae: Right.
Erik Thoennes: That would've been a hard sell for most Christians to pray for the scoundrel.
Scott Rae: Well, I think you can probably make the case that we needed to pray even more-
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] That's right
Scott Rae: ... When Nero was, when Nero was in charge.
Erik Thoennes: That's right. But, you know, this relates to the previous thing we were talking about. A lot of those commitments to God and those songs that were written were written during really difficult times, whether it's war or, poverty or just real challenging times that get us to the end of ourselves and have a greater dependence on God in that way, and we want our leaders to be humble and dependent on God and something beyond themselves, because every man is a frail man.
Scott Rae: Hey, one other thing on the inauguration, and I'm really curious to hear what you think about this, and we may need to take a step back from this and do a little, and do a little systematic theology- ... For our listeners. But what do you make of President Trump's claim that God saved him from assassination, and sort of implied in that is his presidency is a divine appointment- ... In order to save America?
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Well, the, help us think theologically and biblically about a claim like that.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, there are two things going on there that I think theologically we need to think about, and one is just the way we think about the will of God. You can safely say when something happens, that that's God's will, and whether that's a cancer diagnosis we get or the cancer result coming back clear, we say, "Well, this is God's will, and we need to lean into that." But it doesn't mean that what ends up happening according to what we find God's revealed will to be necessarily represents the ideal or where things are going to be one day, and that's where... I mean, some of your listeners know the term inaugurated eschatology, and that's really a big commitment we have b- here at Biola, that the kingdom is inaugurated in Jesus, but it's not consummated yet. And so he is-
Scott Rae: He is here, but not yet.
Erik Thoennes: Yes, it... Not, yeah, the now and not yet of the kingdom, like Ladd said in his Christian theology, that... His New Testament theology, actually, I think. But so, yeah, the now and the not yet means that Jesus has delivered a decisive blow, and he's ushered in the kingdom, but the battle still rages. And so i- there's nothing more clearly portrayed this way in the Bible than the crucifixion, which is a horrible thing. It... I would argue the worst thing that's ever happened. And what does the Bible say? It all happened according to the predetermined plan of God, and he's using this great evil, that he holds people responsible for. I mean, Peter says- ... "You, with the help of sinful men, handed him over to be crucified," and they're responsible for that. But we recognize God's will, so we can always say, "Yes, this is what's happened." Whether it's something we see as good or bad, we rest in God's sovereignty in that, but it doesn't mean we then say it's always the ideal or the best thing or necessarily representative of that. So I think we can safely say God spared Donald Trump's life, but then to make all sorts of interpretations and conclusions about what that necessarily means is tough for us to be able to do. I had a prof in grad school, he was an amazing man, Hazel Bullock. He was an Old Testament prof, and during the AIDS crisis, somebody said, "Do you think AIDS is a judgment of God?" And some people gasped when he said, "Yes." But then he said, "And so is my bad back."... Because we all live in a cursed world.
Scott Rae: Right. That's good.
Erik Thoennes: And it was a [chuckles] beautiful perspective he gave on it, that we live in a cursed world, and that's part of God working his plan out that we need to recognize. And so we don't have interpretations of events like we do in Sodom and Gomorrah, that we have in the Bible, that we can say, "Well, yeah, that was a judgment of God. There's no doubt about it," or, "That was a clear redeeming work of God for this particular purpose." So I do think that article in The Atlantic helps us back off on the kind of confidence we can have sometimes without really good basis necessarily, but resting in the sovereignty of God and still seeking to see his realities of his kingdom come about, sometimes raging against the darkness and warring against injustice, and sometimes being grateful for results that happen that we do think align well with God's ways.
Scott Rae: It does, it does make me appreciate the inscrutability of God.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: And that-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... That his ways are not always clear to us-
Erik Thoennes: That's right
Scott Rae: ... On this side of-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... This side of eternity.
Erik Thoennes: I just taught, right before I came here, on the incomprehensibility and knowability of God, and was trying to get my students to appreciate the tension there. Because on one hand, we can a- be way more confident that we know what God's up to than we really should be. But the other side of it is, God's working, and we know he's always working, and we know he answers prayers, and the prayers of a righteous person are powerful and effective. And so he's, he's working in the events of human beings and in response to prayer and our action. And, and so we, on one hand, want to appreciate how active God is, not falling into deism, where he's detached, but at the same time not fall into this idea that we've got everything figured out that he's doing and what he's up to. I really [chuckles] think I don't even know half of what God's been up to in my life. I mean, I've lived long enough to see him connect some of the dots, but a lot of them, I have no idea how he's gonna connect them. [chuckles] And actually, it, part of it is that I'm appreciative that at Biola we get folks from a more Pentecostal, Charismatic background and folks from more Reformed backgrounds, where I think some of that tension is good. So I think Charismatic folks are gonna encourage us helpfully to be looking for how God's actually working-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Sometimes supernaturally at times. And, and other traditions help us just rest in the sovereignty of God. I have a f- I have a friend, he was at his father's dying bedside, and he had a brother-in-law [chuckles] who's, from a Charismatic background, and he's from a really Reformed background, and they... It's like they had dueling prayers at the bedside-
Scott Rae: [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: ... Where one, the Charismatic guy is saying, "Lord, save him. Heal him, Lord. Do it miraculously. We need him." And the [chuckles] my friend is saying, "Lord, take him. He's lived a good life. We submit to your will." And, [chuckles] and there's got to be both of those-
Scott Rae: Oh
Erik Thoennes: ... 'cause I think we're commanded to pray expectantly and see God work, and at the same time, rest in what he's doing.
Scott Rae: Now, that's, that's a really helpful balance. I remember my mentor in grad school kept saying, "Stop trying to unscrew the inscrutable."
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Right.
Scott Rae: And... 'Cause because, you know, I think Ecclesiastes is really clear that there are just certain things this side of eternity that we're not gonna know.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: We got why questions. You know, it's sort of like what you described, God's connected some of the dots. It's sort of like the underside of that Oriental rug-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... That you can sort of faintly make out the design-
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Right
Scott Rae: ... But it's got a lot of, a lot of knots and loose ends-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... And holes.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: But you get on top of the rug, and you see this beautiful, intricate design-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... And all the pieces fit together.
Erik Thoennes: And I think the sufficiency of Scripture comes in here, because we need to be satisfied and rest in what God has told us as much as we are in what he hasn't told us. And sometimes we can live in the world of the inscrutable and the speculative to the point where we drive ourselves crazy instead of truly having the peace the sufficiency of Scripture brings.
Scott Rae: Yeah, that's a great word. So let's... Th- related to the, this conversation is a story that comes out of the national championship game-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... Last Monday night. Several outspoken Christian players on both teams, including the quarterbacks from both teams... Here's, here's what some of the key players have said. Will Howard, for example, praising his Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Defensive end Jack Sawyer, thank, quote, "Thank God for giving us the ability to go out here and do it, and through the ups and downs, he was with us on our side." And even Notre Dame quarterback Riley Leonard, who said, he said afterwards, "Us and Ohio State were the two teams who praised Jesus Christ the most, and I think we strengthened each other in our faith. I'm happy to see godly men come out on top, no matter what the circumstance is." All right, so this raises the question, you know, did God have anything to do with what transpired on the field on Monday night? And if so, what is it?
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: And if not, why do the players invoke God like they do?
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. So-
Scott Rae: It just raises lots of really interesting questions.
Erik Thoennes: Yes, yeah. There was an article about this where obviously, this guy's not a Christian. It doesn't sound like he's even very religious, and we just came across this article that he was just saying, "Well, every time you claim God enabled you to have this victory, what are you saying about your opponent?" It, it seems like... And he says-
Scott Rae: That he, that he didn't
Erik Thoennes: ... "I think, I think taking credit for it as God being on your side," he said, "is the greatest smack talk you could ever give to somebody."
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: I mean, what's, what's worse [chuckles] than God's on our side, River?
Scott Rae: Yeah, and not yours.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, yeah.
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: And remember Abraham Lincoln said something l- something like during the Civil War, that, "My concern is not that God's on our side, but that we're on his." And, and so the responses to these things, I think, are understandable, because it can seem like smack talk that God's on our side. And, and actually, the Notre Dame quarterback, before the game, said he thought the reason these two teams in particular made it to the championship is because they had so many God-honoring men on the teams. And, and I do think there can be a really simplistic way of approaching it, that it makes it seem like-... I mean, Notre Dame has Touchdown Jesus [laughing] in their stadium. He's- It looks like he's making a touchdown sign in the statue. But, but, it can be simplistic and think that God is mostly concerned about the score, and the over-under, and actually who wins, and those sorts of things, when He's always got much bigger priorities than we tend to have for things.
Scott Rae: I would certainly hope so.
Erik Thoennes: Yes. [laughing] And so I would say most of the time when I heard those guys talk, I thought they were emphasizing the kinds of things they should. He's given us the ability to be here, so it's a humble gratitude.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: He's been with us the whole time. That's a recognition that you don't do anything apart from God. And, and the article that I read was very interesting because it talked about children starving in India, and like, "Why in the world would God care about some dumb football game when He's got much bigger issues to be concerned with?" Well, at the heart of that perspective is a view of God that is far too like a limited human being-
Scott Rae: Yes
Erik Thoennes: ... As if He can't be in India, fully present, caring for those children in the way He is, and at the same time, very concerned about a social, cultural event of great magnitude. Because the fact [chuckles] is, the Bible says, I think God's at work on the cellular level.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: I don't think any ha- anything happens, and Jesus holds all things together by the power of His word. So yes, God cares. Yes, God's involved in everything, and He's got the hairs of our head numbered, and He knows when a sparrow falls to the ground, never mind when human beings made in His image are involved in some big culture- cultural event. So I think God cares about all those things and is at work in all of those things, but so often with priorities that are very different than the ones we emphasize.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I think, my sense when I f- when I first read the piece you sent me, you know, does God care about who wins?
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: I thought, you know, and you, I think, rightly point out, God cares about the, you know, the hairs on our head are numbered. He cares about all these things. So I think that's not quite the right question. I think the right question is, does God intervene to influence the result?
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I think God's always actively involved in anything, to the point where I can say yes to that, and that's why... Most people don't know this, but athletes are far more religious than non-athletes in a culture. Same is true of farmers.
Scott Rae: Yes.
Erik Thoennes: Why? Because they are in touch with their frailty, their dependence on something bigger than themselves. Athletes work so hard for something that they know could all go immediately with one Achilles tendon, and it's all down the, down the drain. And so you recognize so much is out of your control. You get to the point every day, dozens of times, in your complete inability to do one more rep, to do one more, of these things, and you realize that, you know, the ball bounces in ways you have no control over. Now, some of the religiosity of athletes is just superstition. It's like a rabbit's foot.
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes: But a lot of it, I think, is motivated by a sense of dependence, that this thing I'm a part of has so many moving parts that I'm [chuckles] not in control of. You're not even in control of your own body, ultimately, and so you rest in the sovereignty of God in that. And that's why I have appreciated... I have a friend who says, "Oh, these athletes are always thanking God for the win, but never for the loss." That's really not true. I mean, most athletes who are real Christians that I know, they thank God no matter what the outcome, and they realize it's way bigger than that, and their priorities are in a good place, and they just want to be a good witness and realize, "This isn't all about me." It's amazing how much freedom we give guys to choreograph dances in the end zone, sometimes with sexually-
Scott Rae: Yes
Erik Thoennes: ... Immoral stuff like last weekend, and it's just, something to laugh at. Well, that's self-expression. That's what he's about. You put your area code on your eye black. You, you do all [chuckles] kinds of things that are self-expression. Well, why not your relationship with God as the most important thing in your life that you feel freedom to express? So I do think a view of God that is involved in everything, and at the same time, often has very different priorities going on, is an important balance.
Scott Rae: Yeah, and I remember when you were last with us on the Cultural Update, you... This was right after the Michigan-Ohio State game, when a brawl broke out-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... At the end of the game.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And you pointed out, very insightfully how players, b- Christian players from both teams were kneeling in prayer-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Not far from the 50-yard line where Michigan players had planted their flag-
Erik Thoennes: That's right [laughing]
Scott Rae: ... And started a riot among the two teams.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Right.
Scott Rae: And so it strikes me that the, you know, the faith on the part of the players is the real thing.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And yet, I think they are, you know, they would... I think they would admit, if we had them here with us, they would admit that God is just as sovereign whether we win or lose.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And that God, you know, that the r- the result is within the general will of God, but it's not something that we're- where we can say that, you know, you know, God caused certain things to happen so that we would win- ... Or the other team would lose. That's a different... That's-
Erik Thoennes: You know-
Scott Rae: ... That's saying something different.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, this is somewhat related to the Trump, millimeter miracle that the pastor even prayed about at the inauguration. It's interest- It... There, there's a connection here, I think. And, and I wouldn't want to go too far, because just last week, one of my kids had surgery, and I prayed that that surgery would go well-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... And that He would guide the hands of the surgeon. And I don't think I've ever prayed for some NFL or college team to win a game or make a field goal, but when I was a player, I would say, "Lord, help me to win," or, "Lord, would you help make this kick, please? Would you enable him to make [chuckles] this kick?" I've prayed that, and I've prayed that my friend's surgery would go well. And, and when it does, I say, "I believe God answered that prayer." And so I wouldn't want to go so far in avoiding-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... A trivial view of this, that I don't recognize, yeah, we pray for things that... My students pr- are praying for their exam they've got in a couple weeks, and that may seem stupid in light of the fact that people are starving to death, but-... But care, God cares about all of it, and I think He's involved in all of it. And so I wouldn't wanna go too far and not say no, I think we're supposed to present our request to God, and do that boldly and with faith, believing He is involved in this.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I remember my seminary mentor was also the chaplain for the Dallas Cowboys back in the, in the '70s and '80s, and, that's when Tom Landry was their coach. And Landry is a very dynamic Christian. He was chairman of the board of Dallas Seminary for years. And he... I remember he w- he asked my mentor, he said, "Ch- you know, should I... You know, sh- how should I pray for this game? Should I pray to win?" And he, and he s- he shot back quickly, said, "Why wouldn't you?"
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. [laughing]
Scott Rae: Why, why-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: "Why would you think that's inappropriate-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... To do that?"
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Now, I think you pray that knowing that you also hold that request loosely.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] That's right.
Scott Rae: Uh-
Erik Thoennes: And respond s- with continuing gratitude and submission to the sovereignty of God. That's why I'm impressed with Riley Leonard, who, at the press conference, with tears coming down his eyes after getting his guts ripped out in a loss, he said, "I'm, I'm still expressing my gratitude to God." And that's when it's tough-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Is when it, y- when it seems like God didn't answer that particular prayer, and you're still grateful.
Scott Rae: Last thing on this. I've, I've always appreciated, and you would know more about this 'cause you had... You've attended more Biola basketball games than I have, but they always pray before the game. They never pray for Biola to win.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: They p- what do they pray for? For, for coming out of it in good health. You know, they pray, they pray for integrity. They pray for, discipline, you know, to do their best, to leave it all out there. You know, those kinds of things.
Erik Thoennes: Yep.
Scott Rae: But they never... I've never once heard anybody pray for the result. [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: It'd be hilarious to have that happen, though. I would, I would actually love it, 'cause you know when that public prayer is over, the players and their parents are saying, "Lord, please help us win tonight." [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing] All right, anything else on this?
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I think, just r- so many of these stories have this sovereignty of God in the midst of what appears to be very messy human activity, and very hard to figure out what God's up to a lot of the time, and at the same time realizing, wow, there's no doubt in my mind God is working in powerful and even supernatural ways there. And, and so I think that really big theological question is at the core of this, what does this mean? Even the article about how to pray, Esau McCaulley was trying to get us to back off of overconfidence and thinking we knowing what we're d- what we're doing. And he contrasts Saul, who God made the king, in spite of the fact that that wasn't what was best, but then he makes David a king, a man after His own heart, and-
Scott Rae: Who nobody wanted.
Erik Thoennes: Who nobody wanted, [chuckles] right, but who was God's, God's want. And so what's interesting about that is I... The, the one thing I would love to talk to him about, the author about, is he says he's... He does say in the article, "I'm confident that Donald Trump is not the David character in this story because of character flaws." [chuckles] And I thought, "Well, David had a few himself."
Scott Rae: Yes, he did.
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Right. He broke half the Ten Commandments in that once with Bathsheba. So, so that is what I would want to ask him about. "Okay, so you're really confident that you wouldn't go so far as to say that God has put this together in a positive way because of his character flaws?" Well, if you're gonna open that door, who are we going to think God put in this place?
Scott Rae: Nobody's safe.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, right. And so that is one question I would want and wanna ask, and at the same time, realize we all have character flaws, and we can say, "Yeah, I think some real good can come out of this, and I can see why God would do things this..." I wouldn't wanna go too far in withholding overconfidence to the point where we don't really see God as active-
Scott Rae: Right
Erik Thoennes: ... And have the ability to say, "I think that we're..." Like, I wanna say I think there's answered prayer when abortion is outlawed, in the same way I think Jim Crow should've been outlawed. I think... I wanna rejoice in that and say I think God is- that's advancing God's purposes when we outlaw slavery.
Scott Rae: William Wilberforce would certainly have agreed.
Erik Thoennes: Yes, absolutely. And, and so, [chuckles] so what does it mean for us to not go too far to the point of taking our hands off trying to make a difference and saying... Whether it's in a football game or an election?
Scott Rae: All right, let's... A little different story, a different twist, but I think just as remarkable of, as God being at work. In this story, this is a remarkable admission from a self-proclaimed liberal atheist whose moral intuitions tell her a whole lot about the sanctity of life. This is from a woman named Sonia Sodha, a British woman who hosts a radio show on ethics called The Body Politic, which explores a whole host of things in bioethics, like assisted dying, surrogacy, and fetal genetic screening. She has approached these issues with the traditional sort of liberal emphasis on individual autonomy, not restricting people's choices, maximizing freedom, and then she describes her reaction to a penetrating question she got from one of her listeners, whom an old friend, who's trained to be a priest, w- she puts it like this: "Wondered where, in light of my atheistic skepticism about assisted dying, where does my commitment to the value of life come from? Cue me um-ing and ah-ing and trying to explain."
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: "Likewise, my reaction to the time former High Court judge, a strong proponent of assisted dying, looked me in the eye and said, 'Non-believer to non-believer, you obviously are a person who believes very strongly in the sanctity of life.' Her response was, 'Well, maybe I do.' She said with regard to surrogacy-... I've been forced to face up to other concerns that sit less comfortably with my liberal beliefs. The fact that the fetus gains moral status in the later stages of pregnancy," she's not coming, not all the way there, "For me, there's a relationship in late pregnancy between mother and baby that I'm not sure it's right to break lightly, or that I don't think mothers and fathers are truly interchangeable in society at large." It's quite an admission. "There's something valuable about the mother-child bond that shouldn't be lost from discussions about how to enable the conception of children who won't have mothers because they're born to single dads or two fathers." And on prenatal testing, this is really interesting. She said, "We need to think about where we draw the line in terms of what types of information form the basis of legitimate and illegitimate reproductive choices." Really s- really startling. Now, I, you know, I- she doesn't get all the way there. She's got a ways to go still, but in my view, these are remarkable admissions by a self-proclaimed liberal atheist. So where... You know, what do you make of this, and where do these, where do you think these moral intuitions are coming from?
Erik Thoennes: Well, I read that article, and I wanted to meet her.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I do, too.
Erik Thoennes: In, in large part, [chuckles] Scott, simply because she's honest. It's so refreshing to hear someone publicly questioning long-held assumptions that fit with her committed worldview presuppositions, that she no doubt has lots of friends, and colleagues, and associates who are bothered by this questioning she's going through. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: This is in the category of, "Don't tell my friends, but- "
Erik Thoennes: That's right. [laughing] And then she puts it out in the public like that. And I must say, I find it so refreshing when someone, no matter what they believe, is honest in that way, in this world of just talking points and people just spewing rhetoric that fits the party line that they've held to for a long time, to say, "I've been confronted with some challenging questions and realizing my beliefs aren't all consistent with some things I've held for a long time." I just want to applaud her, and I want to be challenged to be that sort of person.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: There are a few people out there... I remember reading Nietzsche saying, "This is horrible, and this guy's logically consistent. He, he thinks the way of Jesus is absurd, and he says it." I mean, [chuckles] and so I appreciate logically consistent, refreshingly honest people who are willing to say things like that. So that was the first thing I thought of, "Oh, how great!" I mean, just politicians just say what is gonna accomplish their ends instead of honestly looking for truth, almost to the point in the political realm, you can't even have an honest conversation that's actually trying to get to truth anymore. So I... But I was immediately thinking of the beginning of Mere Christianity, where C. S. Lewis argues from the moral argument that every human being has a deep sense of morality. We're made in God's image. He's instilled a sense of right and wrong in us, and even if we have basic assumptions that don't fit with that moral sense, it's there, and we're able to appeal to it as Christians. We're able to realize it's been suppressed in unrighteousness by human beings, but it's there, and she's being haunted by it, and I love that she's willing to talk about it. And, and it's a great opportunity for us because I think it's so profoundly true that people can talk about truth being relative and morality being subjective. But I remember, you know, key their car and see how... And you say, "Well, in my-
Scott Rae: Yeah, exactly.
Erik Thoennes: ... In my local narrative, it's okay to key people's cars." They're [chuckles] not gonna be okay with that. So, so it's just, it's just so refreshing to see somebody who is experiencing what Lewis talks about, this moral sense that every human being has that's starting to be in conflict with her beliefs.
Scott Rae: Well, and Lewis also points out that he considers that the most powerful argument for the reality of God, that there's-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... That there is, as Paul described, the law is written on our hearts.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: There is something, morality is built into the fabric of the universe. And, you know, as as atheist J. L. Mackie used to put it, he said, "There's, there's something about moral properties that is such an odd cluster of properties that you c- you can't hardly admit that it arose without-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... A divine, intelligent being."
Erik Thoennes: That's so true, and it's, it... I love being able to assume that about people, even people who say they hate God and hate the Bible, and nevertheless can't get away from a Christian morality, a biblical morality that's embedded in who they are and in the society. I remember reading a Catholic theologian one time, and she had this brilliant insight about as sexual morality decreases, and people have less and less sense of right and wrong in areas of sexuality, she said she's watching food morality increase. So the same people who say you can sleep with whoever you want will also say with great conviction, "And you better eat only free-range chicken." [laughing]
Scott Rae: Yeah. If, if you get to eat meat at all.
Erik Thoennes: That's, that's right. And so she said, "Our morality will always leak out somewhere." [chuckles] It's so true that we can't get away, but we're moral creatures, and even if we shut it down in one area, it's going to show up somewhere else. So, so it's something I think that gives me a lot of hope in ministry, evangelism, missions, that there are things embedded in the souls of people, even though sin has so distorted it, that's there nonetheless.
Scott Rae: Yeah, and I think that, you know, recognizing that moral sense that we all have, and I think sometimes, you know, people, you know, they're, they're picking and choosing about what they like and don't like about Christian morality, but I don't, I don't know too many people who are willing to completely throw, you know, throw the baby out with the bathwater and say there's nothing of value. I mean, after all, most, I mean, most people-... I think even the atheists recognize that Jesus was one of the greatest moral teachers ever to walk the earth.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: And there's a lot, there's a lot in there, even if they, even if most of us recognize that we have a really difficult time living up to those ideals.
Erik Thoennes: Right, right. Yeah.
Scott Rae: And I think that we need to recognize, too, I think that that moral sense that we have has also been corrupted by sin-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... Which is why we have sociopaths who don't feel any sense of remorse when they, you know, do ha- do heinous things.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And, you know, the Bible talks about our co- our conscience has been seared-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... Which I take as a figure of speech for rendering it null and void and-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... Otherwise useless.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Yeah, that can happen. And, and to recognize that we all have this moral sense, and everyone draws lines somewhere. So I've been... I remem- I many times have had people say, "How dare you say that, for instance, homosexuality is wrong? How dare you limit... You know, love is love." But then I'll ask them a- where they draw the line. Are there age limits? Oh, so this idea of consent, that's now the golden rule when it comes to sexual relationships. Who made that up? And, [chuckles] and where are you getting that? And, and are... You know, so everybody's got lines. Now, they continue to be pushed, and I remember New York Times years ago had an article about the sadomasochism movement trying to get credence now with all the other movements. Or, or why do we have these age limits on sexual activity? And but everybody's got lines somewhere, and then to ask why, and what- why are you drawing that line?
Scott Rae: On what basis?
Erik Thoennes: That's right. That becomes always the ultimate question: What is your basis for whatever lines you are drawing? And everybody's got them. And so a lot of people don't have any transcendent revelation that they're able to actually do that from, and so it ends up being, "Yeah, I guess rape is wrong 'cause we took a vote on it."
Scott Rae: Yeah, no, that's why rape is illegal. [laughing]
Erik Thoennes: [laughing]
Scott Rae: Not why, not why it's wrong.
Erik Thoennes: That's a great point, yes.
Scott Rae: I remember Bill Craig saying, "If you think sexual assault is okay, you don't need an argument, you need a therapist."
Erik Thoennes: That's good. [chuckles] That's good.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I think the... You know, this is, this is something I think we can come back to repeatedly because, you know, it just raises the ultimate "who says" question. And when people have... You know, people in cancel culture, which I think is a new absolutism today that is sort of rendering our, you know, our conventional wisdom that relativism was the order of the day- ... May be a little bit out of date.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Because, you know, when the, when the po- when the person who says, "Well, anything goes sexually, but, you know, you better not be eating animals," says who?
Erik Thoennes: Right. Right.
Scott Rae: You know, and without a transcendent source-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... The "says who" question can't be answered other than the fact that we voted-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... Or it reflects a consensus.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I just... Last week, I read through Judges, and it's just stunning, the recurring phrase, and the very last thing it says is, "And, and everyone did what was right in his own eyes." And it ends with this horrific scene at the end of Judges that... And then it just makes that statement saying that's why all this horror is happening, 'cause everybody's doing what's right in their own eyes, rather than what's right in the eyes of the Creator.
Scott Rae: Yeah, we all tend to be- we all can be relativists until we're the victim of some sort of injustice.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] That's right.
Scott Rae: Then we become fairly-
Erik Thoennes: That's right
Scott Rae: ... Fairly rigid absolutists-
Erik Thoennes: That's right
Scott Rae: ... And understandably so.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: All right, anything else on this?
Erik Thoennes: I don't think so. I... You know, when I say refreshingly honest, people like Bill Maher, I think he's generally very honest, which is why he doesn't... He, he kind of offends a lot of people. But I- Bill Maher seems to be saying things these days... Like, he says, "I believe abortion is killing a baby," and I'm fine with that.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And his worldview actually gives credence to being fine with that. If it's just an evolutionary survival of the fittest thing, well... But, but at least he's being honest and consistent, and I appreciate it.
Scott Rae: Yeah, he also, he also says, "I totally understand why pro-life people get so upset about that."
Erik Thoennes: Yes, and, like, Camille Paglia is another sort of thinker I so appreciate. She, she's a lesbian. She would even say she's somehow, some- to some degree transgendered. She's, she's very liberal, but she says, "If people believe that is a human life, what kind of monsters would they be if they didn't fight to protect-
Scott Rae: Yes
Erik Thoennes: ... That human life?" It's, [chuckles] it's so refreshing that even though she doesn't hold that, she understands where we're coming from.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I don't think... I don't know about you, but I don't have any interest in living in the Lord of the Flies-
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: ... Culture, where morality-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Is not important.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Rae: All right, we've got, we've got some really tough questions today. I mean, we always get tough questions, but these- ... You know, these, I think, are gonna be really challenging. So here's the first: Over the past few years, many people have rightly spoken out about the danger of prescribing hormone-blocking drugs to minors for the purpose of gender transition. Sometimes people mention that these drugs are also administered to sex offenders and pedophiles in order to chemically reduce their sex drive. I've never heard any Christian address the ethics of this latter practice, despite the fact that these drugs do have potentially severe side effects for adults. Here's the question: How do you think we should balance concerns for public safety with personal bodily integrity and health, and government power in a situation like this? And here's the caveat: As a Christian who struggles with unwanted sexual attraction to children, I would especially appreciate your thoughts on this. I'll give you first crack at it, and then I got something to add.
Erik Thoennes: Well, it's amazing how this c-... Question, I think, relates to a lot of what we've been talking about already, and that is this balance between the sovereignty of God and the way things are, and at the same time, wanting to take intervention and make things better and improve the situation. And so I do think it's, there's a similar thing going on with this question, and, there's a complexity to human sin that I think we need to recognize. Sin has affected every part of who we are, and every one of us has been profoundly harmed by the effects of sin in every area of our lives. There's the noetic effects of sin intellectually that causes us to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. It affects us sexually, it affects us emotionally, it affects us physically. Our bodies are literally dying because of it. And so I think thinking about the complexity of sin and the way it affects us is really important. And to start off, especially in light of this fact, the fact that this brother says that he struggles with attraction to children, that we're all sexually dysfunctional. Every one of us has sexual dysfunction, sexual sinfulness, sexual twistedness, and for some, it has an effect that has a mental illness associated with it of some kind, a degree that has a grievousness to it that we also need to acknowledge. And so I think intervention, in whatever way we consider it, needs to be something we think through as a legitimate possibility to help people with that. I have had lots of medical intervention for things that have happened to me through stupidity or- [chuckles] ... Just sort of natural deterioration that I've taken great lengths to try to fix. And so I think we would need to take it on a case-by-case basis with great compassion and wisdom and prayer to know how to help people, whether incarcerated folks or folks struggling with this.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I appreciate this brother's vulnerability-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... On this, being willing to share that. Interesting to hear. My take on this is I don't think these should be administered without consent. And I think, you know, there are, there are a handful of states that allow this to be done without consent, and some countries that allow this to be done without consent. I s- I see nothing wrong if someone's informed about the risks and they weigh the risks and the benefits with them taking these in order to control their desires. But I would also do this in conjunction with other forms of support and therapy. And I think for, you know, for this brother, I think that, you know, having a handful of folks who share his faith to come alongside of him and, you know, and serve him and f- you know, really form the body of Christ around him. Some of the risks of this are pretty serious, and most of... To be effective, it requires a three-to-five-year regimen of treatment. And once the treatment is stopped, the effectiveness of it goes away. So it's not a cu- it doesn't, it doesn't... It's not a cumulative type of thing. But osteoporosis is a big, is a big side effect, cardiovascular disease, impaired, glucose and lipid metabolism- ... So fats and sugars- ... You have more trouble, getting those into your system. But it also comes with depression, hot flashes, infertility, anemia, uh-
Erik Thoennes: Wow
Scott Rae: ... Can a- can also result. So there's, there's some, there's some really serious side effects that I think need to be weighed carefully as opposed to the pub- the public health dimension. But I think I don't see anything wrong with taking these in the same way we would take some other form of medical treatment to control, you know, something that's going on in our bodies that's the result of the general entrance of sin.
Erik Thoennes: Right. So, I mean, you're the expert ethicist. So if a guy had pyromania, and he was arrested for that, he was incarcerated for it, he's done his time, he's getting out, and he's saying, "You know what? I'm gonna set things on fire again when I get out of here." But there was a drug [chuckles] that could alleviate that desire, I'd want him to take it. I wouldn't want to say, "Well, you're gonna have to stay in jail the rest of your life 'cause you set stuff on fire." [chuckles] And this, I mean, it's i- on a, on a lesser level, we think of, you know, a kid who just can't... He has no impulse control, and it's wrecking his academic life, his social life. And, and at some point you can say, "Well, let's pray more," or, "Let's get you in the Word more." And another way you wanna say, "Well, there are actually medications that can help you slow down and help you think more before you do things." And so, again, weighing in on a case-by-case basis, I think it's important to consider the helpfulness of that sort of medical intervention, without reflexively going to it all the time.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I think with kids, I'd say it's, that's a different matter. Because I don't, I don't consider most children, at least until you get closer to an age of, you know, an age of accountability, as more as an adult, they really have the ability to consent to- ... To these kinds of things.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: So I th- I think, and we, I think we generally would trust the parents to do, to do the right thing by their child, in that regard. So I think the example with kids, I think, is fine. The pyromaniac is a little different. I would say, you know, you best not be living in Los Angeles at this point. [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] Keep no blowtorches anywhere near you.
Scott Rae: [chuckles] Yeah. But yeah, I think if... I think that, in general, I think it would she- ob- it should be up to the individual to weigh the risks-... 'cause it, 'cause these are, these are really serious risks. Now, I think the risk to h- to public health is significant, too. I don't wanna underplay that either. Um- And so I think there are, there, I mean, there are some states that do allow this to be administered without consent. But I would, I think the, I think the b- the better approach, in my view, is that consent ought to be required- ... For that. Now, I think you can make it where consent, if consent is not given, then the alternatives can be so distasteful, like staying in prison.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: You know, or having a, you know, wearing an ankle monitor that monitors all your activity at all times-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, yeah
Scott Rae: ... You know, things like that.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: I think the alternatives can be made so distasteful to encourage people to take, you know, take the drug, take the medication as an alternative.
Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Yeah, I mean, and before we leave this one, Scott, I do think I so agree with you that I appreciate his honesty and his recognition of his challenge and a desire to walk into it in a way that is God-honoring. And for those who don't have this kind of battle, we can't have scarlet letters in the church.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And it really is so sad to me that there are some sins, some things people battle, that we don't feel like we need to have any sympathetic response for or desire to understand the challenge of it. And so doesn't mean we don't see sin for what it is, but for us to not ever take anyone off the table because of a particular kind of battle they're fighting, especially when they wanna honestly confront it, like this, as a church, we need to be a place where there aren't scarlet letters for certain sins that we have.
Scott Rae: Yeah, that's a really, I think, a really helpful redemptive word on this, too, because last time I checked in the Scripture, God's not writing anybody off-
Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Right
Scott Rae: ... Because of their sin.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: [lips smack] Here's a second question. This is, I think this is, equally challenging. It says, "What biblical principles apply to the pursuit of retrieving hostages?" This obviously has something to do with the hostage deal that was just struck this week between Israel and Hamas. "Are there any deontological principles," which means intrinsically valuable moral principles, "in Scripture, which says that we should agree to any deal to get back hostages because life is more important than any negative consequences that arise from dealing with terrorists? Or should we think consequentially about this, weighing the value of a life against the harm of releasing terrorists who will do future evil and/or incentivize the taking of future hostages?"
Erik Thoennes: [lips smack] Well, this raises a question that I wish a lot more, at least American Christians, wrestled with, and that is the whole idea of just war theory and what makes a war something a Christian could be behind. 'Cause we start with the image of God in every human being. [lips smack] And so on one end of the spectrum is a pacifism that said, "Well, war is never okay for Christians to engage in any way or support." But then you've got different versions of just war theory that would say, "Well, you can't do a pr- you can't even do a preemptive war. It needs to be just a defensive war. You can't take the first step." Now, some people would say, "Well, that's a pretty stupid way to fight a war. You're never gonna win if you don't do anything preemptively."
Scott Rae: Israel would've lost the Six-Day War-
Erik Thoennes: Yes, exactly
Scott Rae: ... If they adhered to that.
Erik Thoennes: And, and so there's a pretty hawkish version of just war theory on one end and a pacifist view on the other end. It's interesting we're celebrating Martin Luther King, who was a non-
Scott Rae: And, and then on this farther end, there's a war is hell, and no, there are no rules.
Erik Thoennes: That's right. That's right. So wake up and smell-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... The napalm, and here we go. And so [chuckles] so yeah, right! So you've, you've got these different views of war, and I don't think we're gonna solve this now, but I would just implore our listeners to think really deeply and biblically about what is a just war from a Christian perspective. Now, there's a well-developed just war theory all the way back to Augustine, and so it's not that we need to think about this from scratch, but we need to think about it. And we need to think about not just aligning with the political party that we are part of that may think this is a good idea or not, but that we go into it distinctively Christianly and sometimes go against what a political party we may otherwise affiliate with wouldn't go along with. And so, I mean, it is, it is pretty scary to live in a time where we're not even positive why some wars get started sometimes. Is it to change the news focus going on? [chuckles] And so it's hard to even know half the time what's really going on from where I sit, and so it's pretty hard to be go hu- gung ho about a lot of things. But, but I think there are clearly times where, [lips smack] where Christians have far greater reason to be supportive of something that requires violence, like a war does, than other times.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I think the just, the just war tradition came out of, you know, basically Augustine's teaching on the use, on the use of force to love your neighbor. And, I mean, his- ... Had a well-known analogy that says, if t- if you're walking in the field and see, and you see your neighbor, you know, being threatened i- with a mortal threat, and you stand by and do nothing, you can hardly say that you've loved your neighbor.
Erik Thoennes: Right. That's immoral.
Scott Rae: And that's immoral.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: And I think what he meant individually, I think he intended to apply writ large.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And I think in this s- in this specific scenario, I think Israel could have gotten these hostages back a long time ago.... If they had agreed to, you know, what they considered to be certain egregious conditions- -that would have put them more in danger.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And so I would say to this, to this particular mission, I would say there are deontological principles that are in sta- at stake. Because we value the sanctity of life of all of those hostages. But we also have to think consequentially about this, because if we are paying such a heavy price that we are further endangering ourselves in a significant way, then I think, I think we have, we have to think really hard about, you know, is it the, is it the wisest thing for us to be negotiating this heavy a cost to get a handful of hostages back?
Erik Thoennes: And setting a precedent that would actually encourage future hostage-taking-
Scott Rae: Right
Erik Thoennes: ... Because, hey, they'll, they'll play with, play the game with us. And so I've always had a lot of respect for Israel's, deep understanding of what they're up against. And, and it's easy to sit in our comfortable places here telling other people how they should fight their wars [chuckles] when we're, we're safe at home.
Scott Rae: Yeah. So I think, so I would say to the listener, it's deontological principles, yes. Consequential consideration of, you know, what's the outcome of this gonna be? Yes.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And ultimately, the reason we make that consequential analysis is because we believe in a deontological principle of the sanctity of life-
Erik Thoennes: That's so helpful. Yeah
Scott Rae: ... For g- for the general population that government is designed and ordained by God to protect.
Erik Thoennes: That's so helpful.
Scott Rae: All right. Anything else on that?
Erik Thoennes: No.
Scott Rae: I think we've, I think we've taken some good questions today.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And I-
Erik Thoennes: Appreciate our listeners.
Scott Rae: Hopefully, hopefully, we've been helpful in this, and, this has been really helpful. So appreciate, Erik, your, you know, your sort of 35,000-foot level theologically for this, helping frame this theologically for our listeners. This has been s- I think, super helpful in looking at the, these particular stories. And, you know, we always love having you on with us, so thank you for bringing your biblical and theological insights to these, what I think are some pretty tough issues, pretty tough questions-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, yeah
Scott Rae: ... To deal with.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. You're welcome.
Scott Rae: So this has been the Think Biblically weekly cultural update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and residence and online, including our Master's in Christian Apologetics, our Institute for Spiritual Formation, our online Bachelor's in Bible Theology and Apologetics, an accelerated program in Bible Theology and Ministry that allows students to earn bachelor's and master's degrees together in just five years. We also have programs and master's degrees in Old Testament, New Testament, theology. I'm trying to think of them all. Marriage and family therapy, philosophy, and Chri- and Christian leadership and ministry.
Erik Thoennes: There you go.
Scott Rae: So visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you have comments, if you'd like to ask questions, we really encourage you. We're getting some great questions the last few weeks, especially. Or make suggestion on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app and share it with a friend, and join us Tuesday for our conversation on calling and burnout with Biola professor Dr. Ariana Malloy. Thanks for listening, and in the meantime, remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]
