Biola UniversityScott is joined by guest co-host Erik Thoennes to discuss:
: Celebrating the return of all surviving Israeli hostages and discussing the theological and political complexities of the Israel–Gaza peace accord.
Faith and Gen Z: Exploring new data showing a —even as among the same generation reach record highs—and how both trends reflect a deep search for meaning in a secular age.
: Spotlighting the genocide of Christians in Nigeria and the crackdown on China’s house churches, with reflections on unity, empathy, and prayer for the persecuted church worldwide.
Listener Question: Authenticity at Work: Responding to a viral quote about not bringing your “authentic self” to work—examining biblical balance between honesty, professionalism, and humility.
Listener Question: AI and Faith: Considering whether AI-generated media might force society to rediscover discernment and critical thinking in what we choose to believe.
Listener Question: Outrage Culture in the Church: Addressing the rise of Christian social-media outrage, calling believers to pursue truth with grace, humility, and unity rather than division.
Episode Transcript
Scott Rae: [upbeat music] The hostages return finally from Gaza. Gen Z increases both in faith and suicide rates, and genocide against Christians in Nigeria and a crackdown on house churches in China. These are the stories we'll cover, and we'll answer some of your questions. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and sitting in for Sean, who's on the road today, is my Talbot colleague, Dr. Erik Thoennes. This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural update coming to you from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Erik, thanks for being with us.
Erik Thoennes: Always great.
Scott Rae: Appreciate you being willing to take a deep dive into some of these stories and bring us your perspective. Now, the-- Erik, this first story I don't think needs a lot of introduction. My guess is, unless our listeners have been living on a desert island or, you know, are completely off the grid, they are likely aware of it. But very good news in Gaza. All of the still-living Israeli hostages returned to their homes on Monday. They were delivered initially to the Re'im military base near the Gaza border. To say the least, there were, there were joyous reunions with loved ones. I have... I've not gotten tired of watching those.
Erik Thoennes: No.
Scott Rae: They are really moving.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: Some 400,000 people gathered in Tel Aviv to celebrate the end of the war and the return of the hostages. And as part of the ceasefire agreement, roughly 2,000 Palestinians were released, including about 250 who were serving life sentences in Israel for killing Israelis, and others who were held following the events of October 7th, 2023. And the Palestinians rejoiced en masse over the end of the war and began returning to what's left of their communities. Now, as Sean and I mentioned last week, this is only phase one of the peace accords. The next phase includes much more challenging issues, such as the extent of Israeli withdrawal, the disarmament of Hamas, and the question of who rules Gaza in the future. Now, Erik, you've-- you made some pretty poignant theological comments about this that has to do with the hostages. Help us think biblically and theologically about these events.
Erik Thoennes: I love being old enough to have seen this issue in the Middle East, in Israel in particular, in the news for our whole lives, usually seeing very little progress. And so it is wonderful to be able to rejoice like we're able to see significant progress in one of the, one of the real terrible crises in our lifetimes over this. And like you said, I have just loved watching these people reunited with their loved ones after harrowing experiences. And I heard the families and the hostages went through counseling to prepare for them for these reuniting times, both even being told, "Don't hug them too hard, they might not be able to take it." And so the emotional aspects of it, the physical aspects of it's not an easy thing to reenter life like that. But so many wonderful scenes we've been able to experience that have reminded me over and over again of freedom we have in Christ, having been slaves to sin and the powers of darkness and being liberated, and the homecoming of that is something glorious. I remember hearing about a man who collects pictures of baseball teams at home plate after someone has hit-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... A game-winning home run. You know, the whole team gathers-
Scott Rae: Yeah, yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... At home plate, and these photographs of this runner coming home after having [chuckles] won the game, and the jubilation in that. And so I've just been thinking a lot about seeing Jesus and being reunited with loved ones and coming home once and for all, and that we're all strangers in a strange land, and the reuniting is a beautiful thing to see. So I've been thinking a lot about what Christ offers us in bringing us home after having been held captive. It's, it's also fascinating to have something in the news for our whole lives and see this major progress. On one hand, rejoicing they're coming home, but like you said, 2,000 prisoners being released, 250 of which or so being life sentences. And a lot of people are concerned, "Well, they're just gonna go regroup and start over again with what they were intending in the first place." And so with the rejoicing, there also needs to be a sober caution, realizing that as much progress as this is, there could be some serious problems down the road as well.
Scott Rae: Well, there are good reasons why it hasn't been resolved in our lifetimes.
Erik Thoennes: Yes. Yes. And, and they're not just political. And, and that's one of my biggest concerns, is that people realize that these are millennia-old differences that really do boil down to how you define God, how you define human beings, how you define the purpose of our existence based on our theological commitments. And we don't just always remind people about the theological foundation for everything, because it's job security for us. [laughing]
Scott Rae: [laughing] But we wish it is.
Erik Thoennes: Wish it is. But it really is at the core of everything. The way you, based on your understanding of the big answers to the big questions of life, will determine how you view this whole thing. You'll see it all through a lens of how you understand theology at its core. And for Christians in particular, there can be significantly different ways of viewing political issues related to Israel, who, of course, biblically are God's chosen people, that He used in the Old Covenant as a means of bringing about the Messiah and ushering in the New Covenant. But the relationship between the Old and New Covenant, the current role of Israel in God's plan, some Christians don't think there is one.... Some, Biola, we do believe there is a plan for ethnic Israel in God's future plan, and defining exactly what that looks like, there can be differences. But, but how you view these things aren't just political issues. They're not just social issues, governmental, economic, they're profoundly theological.
Scott Rae: Well, and I would suggest, too, that they're, they're not just political or social issues for Muslims either.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Oh, absolutely.
Scott Rae: They're profoundly theological issues for them as well.
Erik Thoennes: Absolutely.
Scott Rae: I think sometimes the media, you know, being the, I think the overwhelmingly secular media that it is sometimes a bit tone deaf-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... To the role and how, and how foundational our theological views are to the way we live.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: It's, it's as though it's, it's, it's a bit of a surprise to people that we actually take these things seriously and order our lives accordingly.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: But that's true not only for the followers of Jesus, that's true for Muslims-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... That's true for Hindus as well.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Right.
Scott Rae: And there's, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of things that are determined in other parts of the world by theological beliefs.
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Scott Rae: And that's, that's one of the reasons why we are so insistent on getting things right theologically.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: Because those... It's not just that ideas matter, but it's theological ideas matter especially.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Yeah, I w- I often consciously walk by Feinberg Hall here at Biola. Our first dean of Talbot was Charles Feinberg, and when he believed Jesus was the Messiah, he was disowned by his family. I had both his sons as professors when I was at Trinity, and I'm, I'm sobered walking by Feinberg Hall in the center of our campus, realizing what it cost him as a, as a Jew to recognize Jesus as his Messiah. And it's sobering for me to think about what discipleship has meant for Christians through the centuries. And like you say, there are secular Jews in Israel who view this very differently than the theologically committed, Torah-committed Jews as well, and... But it has practical ramifications. The reason we start a Messianic Jewish studies program here and have a center in New York is because of our theological commitments and the way we think God's working things out.
Scott Rae: You know, not too long ago, probably six, seven years ago, I spent a week with, Chosen People Ministries- ... In Israel, speaking to a group of the leaders in the Messianic movement.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And it was such a rich time, and these were people from all walks of life. They're doing all different kinds of things. Some... I mean, all of them had served in the military. Now, they'd done, they had done their three-year stint. Some of them had served longer than that. And, I mean, w- I remember meeting young, one young woman who, just the most delightful person, but was, but had been trained as a sniper [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... For the Israeli [chuckles] military.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: I thought, "May- maybe I'll try to stay on her good side." [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: [laughing] Right. I know we have a woman in our church who was raised in Israel, and she was just a delightful young lady, just beautiful, and I would often think, "She, she could kill me very easily." [chuckles] She had been in the military there, like, is required, and w- I think that has a big impact on just the society. But, but it's been fascinating to think through these things theologically in light of current events politically here as well. So, you know, I have friends and acquaintances who are all over the spectrum within Christianity politically, in the way they think about Israel, the way they think about the relationship between our faith and politics, and what's been interesting to watch happen is, those most eager to bring politics and the Christian view of things together represent, in a reformed perspective on things, a postmillennial view, which sees we're ushering in the kingdom even before the King comes back. And so that leads to an urgency to transform culture through all kinds of political and otherwise kinds of involvement.
Scott Rae: So to hasten the Lord's return.
Erik Thoennes: That's right, yes. And, and so those most eager to do that, are, you know, have become darlings of more conservative folks politically in the church now. But what's been interesting is, those folks also don't think there's a future for Israel in God's plan, because their views of the end times. And so you're getting some of these leaders who have been informed by this, diverting from one of the typical conservative Christian Republican views of Israel, and there's a bit of a crisis within those folks that's now trying to figure out, "What does this mean for us?" And so I just highlight that because, again, theological foundations have significant ramifications for the way you view everyday life and how we view politics in the church and those sorts of things. So, so to once again return to basic doctrinal commitments that we have, realizing these aren't ivory tower things that have no ramifications for life-
Scott Rae: I mean, they-
Erik Thoennes: ... They couldn't be more practical.
Scott Rae: They do keep us in business, in the ivory tower. [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: But they do touch life in sometimes in ways that we don't expect.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And I suspect that some of the folks you're referring to, who come from what I would call more a radical reformed, view of the world, are probably, are not o- not even aware of the theological inconsistency- ... With their support for Israel, but at the same time, recognizing that their theological foundation doesn't allow for any place for Israel-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... In any way-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... In God's plan for the, for the future, for the end times.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Yeah.
Scott Rae: Now, to be clear, at Talbot, we do hold-... That God's promises that were made to Israel literally in the Old Testament will be fulfilled literally to Israel-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... In, at the end times. The promise of the kingdom being consummated when the Lord returns, and we hold a premillennial, not postmillennial view, where the Lord's return precedes the consummation of the kingdom, doesn't, and doesn't come after it.
Erik Thoennes: And that view, is prone to error as well, sort of on the other end of the spectrum, where you just say, "Well, let's just wait for Jesus to come back and hunker down, and why rearrange the furniture on the Titanic? 'Cause it's all going to hell anyway." And so, and so we don't even have a basis for liberal arts education like we do at Biola, and value art, value things that aren't direct evangelism for the Judgment Day, but realizing that the creation mandate comes in, too, to be fruitful and multiply, rule over, and subdue, is vital to combining with the Great Commission and the Great Commandment. So the creation mandate, the Great Commission, the Great Commandment, to love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself, to make disciples of all nations, and also to rule over and subdue, be fruitful and multiply, all need to be brought together in our Christian worldview, where we have a basis for liberal arts education like [chuckles] we do now, but without losing our evangelistic edge. And, and that's one of the things I love about Biola, and I think our premillennial commitment historically has something to do with that, in that we know the kingdom's not coming till the King comes back. It doesn't mean he hasn't ushered it in, and we're advancing it in our lives, but an emphasis on the return of the King, for the kingdom to be brought in and consummated the way we need... I really do think, although it can be prone to error, is so helpful in maintaining an evangelistic, missional concern that's easily lost in academia.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I can see that. You know, and you think back when the prophets prophesy about the, what the kingdom's gonna look like in its fullness, there are two parts to it. There's an individual component where-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... Every knee bows at the name of Jesus. But there's a social component, too, where we'll have a rightly ordered society that will be free from sin and corruption.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: Now, I admit, Erik, I have a, That's challenging for me to sort of wrap my arms around what that's actually gonna look like.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: But I know it will be a vast improvement over what we have today, and I think it, I think the idea that it's all, you know, it's all gonna, it's all gonna burn-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... And be destroyed is not, is not biblical. It's gonna be transformed.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And the Ear- I mean, the Earth is, the creation, as we speak, is groaning for its redemption, all creation. And so I th- and what that suggests is that all creation will be redeemed-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... Not just the individuals within it.
Erik Thoennes: Right. I had Charles Feinberg's son, John Feinberg, for a course when I was at Trinity called Continuity and Discontinuity, and it was this fascinating conversation of the relationship between the old and new covenants, between Israel and the Church, and students often ask me, "Do you theologians ever make any progress in all these debates?" [chuckles]
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: And I'll say, "Sometimes no, but sometimes yes," and I actually think this has been one of those areas where I have seen progress, along with the so-called charismatic, non-charismatic thing and other issues. I do think we've made progress in our lifetime on this issue. I remember I went to a conference years ago, and that was the discussion, Israel and the Church, and I would go to a paper of a guy who was a covenant theologian, and he was recognizing, like I hadn't heard before, some really distinct ways God's revealed Himself through history that don't lead maybe to the kind of rigid dispensational charts they used to come up with, but nevertheless, realize, you know, something really happened at Pentecost.
Scott Rae: Yes.
Erik Thoennes: Something really happened [chuckles] at-
Scott Rae: There's a major dis-
Erik Thoennes: ... At the Incarnation.
Scott Rae: A major discontinuity-
Erik Thoennes: That's right
Scott Rae: ... Between that and the Old Testament.
Erik Thoennes: Yes, and this is gonna be strange to maybe even you, but I'm cautious with even the term Judeo-Christian ethic, as if they're the same ethic. Well, no, the Old Covenant ethic is very [chuckles] different than what we end up finding in some ways. There's continuity as well, but just to be careful of not just parachuting into the Bible wherever we are, it happened to be, or my concordance led me, but realizing where we are in redemptive history when we go to a passage of scripture, so that we have an awareness of where we are in God's plan as we're doing that. And, you know, what's great is our dear brother, Bob Saucy, who's with Jesus now, he's one of the main ones who helped us make progress-
Scott Rae: That's right
Erik Thoennes: ... In this area-
Scott Rae: That's right
Erik Thoennes: ... With what he worked on, as well as charismatic stuff. So Bob, I always put Bob up on a s- on a slide with Calvin and Luther and Spurgeon on my, in my classes, and he was always so embarrassed I'd put him up there.
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: And I'd say, "Bob, you deserve to be up there." His son, Mark, is here now, but-
Scott Rae: Oh
Erik Thoennes: ... Yeah, it's been cool to see progress made in that area. But although these days it seems the entrenchment is causing some problems, that feels like a return to the sides being pretty rigid before.
Scott Rae: Well, I'd say to our listeners, you know, stay tuned.
Erik Thoennes: Yes.
Scott Rae: And, if you're, if you're interested in digging a little deeper theologically, you might think about one of our certificate programs or coming to join us to study theology here, 'cause these are the kinds of conversations we have in our classrooms week in and week out.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And it's, it's good stuff. All right, now, the second story is actually two stories on Gen Z, and I know, Erik, you are really good at connecting the dots in these stories. I'm really interested to see how you're gonna connect these dots because they're... They seem to suggest somewhat different things. One is a story from The New York Times about the rise of Christian faith and the return to church amongst Gen Z folks, especially young men. Our second story, which we'll get to in a minute, is about the rise of suicide rates- ... Among Gen Z, higher than millennials and previous generations at the same age.... Now, let's, let's go back to the first one, the rise of Christian faith among Gen Z. Gen Z-ers who attend church do so more regularly than older generations, according to recent Barna research. And the, here's the, here's a quote, a quote from the article puts it like this: "In the aftermath of COVID, amid the longing for purpose, community, and transcendence that many Gen Z-ers feel, a sizable minority of them have found their answer in conservative Christianity, fueling both the religious and political revival among these young Americans. They bring a new attitude toward the combination of faith and politics, and many see politics as a matter of spiritual warfare." Now, the article also points out that they are more likely to attend charismatic churches and to see their politics as a battle between good and evil. Some, not a lot, but some, and they do-- they tend to make a lot of noise when they do, some actually question the legitimacy of democracy and whether religious pluralism is actually a good idea. Now, the second piece, I think, is a different kind of contrast. Not only is religiosity rising among Gen Z, but so are suicide rates. For Gen Z adults, the oldest of whom are now reaching their late 20s, suicide is taking more lives than 10 years ago when millennium, millennials were of the same age. Now, to break it down just a little bit further, it, Black and Hispanic men make up roughly 85% of the increase, with suicide becoming the second highest cause of death for young Hispanics, and for Asians, suicide is the number one cause of death for that Gen Z generation. Now, Erik, there's, there's no one-size-fits-all explanation for this, but it could have to do with a handful of things, with depression, COVID-induced isolation, poor economic prospects, a general sense of despair, the emptiness of secular worldviews when it comes to purpose and the meaning of life. So it's a little hard to generalize, and I wanna be careful that we don't paint with too broad a brush here, but try to get at a little bit of more what underlies this. So give me, give me your take on this. You know, you could take one or the other, or both at the same time.
Erik Thoennes: I don't think there's any more relevant book in the Bible these days than Ecclesiastes. That talks about life under the sun, that may offer you the very best things life, just limited to this life, offers. And-
Scott Rae: Now, you're, you're taking under the sun-
Erik Thoennes: Under the sun to me-
Scott Rae: Refer to-
Erik Thoennes: ... Not disconnected from God and the things of eternity.
Scott Rae: Okay.
Erik Thoennes: The things that really last. So you can have everything the world offers. I remember, I think it was his fifth Super Bowl Tom Brady had won. Here he is, married a supermodel, billionaire, five Super Bowls, every quarterback record in the NFL, and he was being interviewed, and he said, "This can't be all there is." [chuckles]
Scott Rae: What more do you want?
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: I mean... [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, he's got everything we think-
Scott Rae: That's right
Erik Thoennes: ... The world's going to lead to happiness. And so I think that what we're seeing in both of these stories is basically the same thing, an awareness that life is meaningless if it's just what I have been finding it to be. And I would add to the really helpful, insightful list you gave that contributes to this, spending your life on a screen. Letting a screen that's really frothy, mostly meaningless cat videos or what- [chuckles] whatever it, or worse, or sinful things, is getting you to this conclusion that this can't be all there is. And so it seems like the reactions are drastic based on how it's been. And trying to find meaning in life is either something you conclude you can't do, which is where you need to get for suicide. You ha- you have to have no hope that your life has any meaning, any significance, and, or you go try to find it. And I think, I think what Christianity offers is at least a proposal that seems substantive of how you're gonna find meaning for this life that's feeling awfully meaningless to you. So I really think probably the same thing's going on. It's, it's pretty drastically different ways of responding to a sense of your meaninglessness, but it makes sense to me that you either come to the conclusion, "You know what? There, there is nothing worth living for," or, "I gotta go find it. And it, and it seems like maybe this old tradition I thought was stodgy and uncool might actually have something to offer."
Scott Rae: May, may have something to it.
Erik Thoennes: Yep.
Scott Rae: You know, ironically, Erik, this week was the birthday of Friedrich Nietzsche-
Erik Thoennes: Oh
Scott Rae: ... Who I think is probably the... If I, if I could pinpoint one s- philosophical source for most of the ideological ills of our culture today, it, most of it, I think, goes back to him-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... If not further.
Erik Thoennes: Yep.
Scott Rae: So explain to our listeners a little bit about what nihilism is and how that impacts, you know, things like, you know, identity politics, critical theory,
Scott Rae: You know, and some of the, I mean, other ideologies that I think we have led us down a path that's gone off the rails.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I love that I'm sitting here with one of the best ethicists in the world, because as you're asking that question about Nietzsche, I'm thinking about my ethics professor at my state university that I had.
Scott Rae: Interesting.
Erik Thoennes: And he-- My, my ethics professor was a, an atheist, ex-Roman Catholic priest who hated Christianity and was an alcoholic and a homosexual, and, [scoffs] and he, Nietzsche was his hero.... He really was convinced that Nietzsche had figured it out, and so he and I had some [chuckles] fascinating conversations-
Scott Rae: I bet
Erik Thoennes: -back in college, but that was my ethics professor. And, and what I love about Nietzsche is his honesty that his presuppositions lead him to, and he's willing to say that, "Yeah, there is no transcendent meaning," and if all we have is our individual experience, you don't have anything that's transcendently worth living for. There is no meaning like we all seem to long for at the core of our being, and so it doesn't boil down to loving your enemies. It boils down to the will to power, that you are going to be one of the one who's the fit that survive, and you're gonna climb to the top of the food chain without whatever it takes. So turn the other cheek is foolish nonsense, and the Christian ethic that even non-Christians sort of think must be right, he came along and said, "No. What leads you to that conclusion [chuckles] based on naturalistic assumptions about humanity?" And so that's, again, we're getting back to this where you start is where you end up.
Scott Rae: Is huge.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. And so if your assumptions about life and God lead you to nothing but naturalistic explanations, of humans, yeah, just being about survival of the fittest and molecules and atoms, and that's all we really are, well, don't talk to me about all of these aspirations that humans seem to want. Give it up, and live for today and make the most of it, and that's the courageous way to live.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I think the recognition, as Richard Dawkins put it, that, it's, you know, the universe is basically a place of blind, pitiless indifference- [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] That's right
Scott Rae: ... To things like meaning, purpose.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: I mean, I mean, that, if anything, w- I think suggests the heir to that nihilism that Nietzsche was so, I think, so consistent with.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: And I commend... Again, I think you're right. I commend him for having the stomach to actually, you know, go all the way with his presuppositions, and a lot of people, I think, are engaging in a s- in somewhat wishful thinking-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... To think that we can have these naturalistic assumptions and yet borrow something from transcendent religious faith-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... In or- in order to salvage it.
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae: But as Nietzsche put it, he view- he viewed Christianity as a cut flower- ... Or the West, I'm sorry, as a-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... Cut flower, civilization cut off from its Christian roots.
Erik Thoennes: Right.
Scott Rae: And I think he, I think, rightly suggested that the hope for the West to ma- to regain that sense of purpose and meaning apart from, or being cut off from those Christian roots, was a fool's errand.
Erik Thoennes: Right. Right.
Scott Rae: So I think this is... I appreciate you k- helping us connect the dots here on that, and I think for our listeners, Nietzsche is hard to read. He's difficult to understand, but, our colleague Greg Ganssle is working on a book that I think will be out in a year or so on sort of a layman's... A book for the layman to understand Nietzsche and the relevance of his thought for today.
Erik Thoennes: That's so good. You know, this brings up something else I've been talk- thinking so much about, and it's just a simplistic way of approaching our lives and ideas that will even h- someone will hear that they're reading Nietzsche at Biola, and they've sold their souls, right? Instead of saying, "No, there's a reason this guy's been so influential, and he was brilliant," and we believe in things that completely go against what he's saying. But this is a brilliant man who's been profoundly influential, so let's understand what he's saying and read it so that we can actually even see truth in it when it's there, but also critique it through a biblical lens that doesn't just slap labels on, like Marxist, CRT, and don't actually think, "Well, why do you think Marx was so influential?" Maybe he had actually a pretty accurate read on certain things in human nature, that we don't need to chuck. We, we can [chuckles] actually find some common ground with my next-door neighbor. And, and so to be able to understand these f- massive ideas that haven't had just an impact in the Enlightenment or before it, but right now with my next-door neighbor, he's never heard of Nietzsche, but he thinks just like-
Scott Rae: He lives, he lives that way.
Erik Thoennes: Exactly! And so I wanna understand people based on a worldview they've inherited, often unknowing where it even comes from, and everybody's got one. Some of us, it mainly came from a 10th grade English teacher that was really impressive to us, or Oprah or Reader's Digest or [chuckles] wherever it comes from. We're- We've all got one, and so to be able to be self-critical and think, "Well, where is my worldview coming from, and what is it, and how do I compare it to the way other people think?" But I can't do that if I don't know how other people think. And so w- realizing we've got to went... I remember reading Freud in my psych class in college, and my psych prof at my state university, he was- he l- he thought Froy- Freud was completely across the board right. And I remember thinking, "All right, I'm going to have to learn to read something that in many ways undermines a view of the Bible about human nature and about what our motives are, but I also want to understand why he's been so influential and w- and how to relate and talk to people who have a completely Freudian view of things." I'm not a serious minister of the gospel if I don't care about learning the way people think from the source.... And a lot of times when I've done that, I know the source better than the people who actually believe that.
Scott Rae: That's not surprising. [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: And I can help them understand what it is they believe based on where they're getting it. 'Cause a lot of times they don't even know where they get these ideas. They just permeate the culture. And the reason there's this, "Oh, you live in an ivory tower," sort of thing, is because sometimes it takes 30 years for what's going on in the academy to trickle down to daytime television, but it gets there.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I remember my son, who's, who's in the film business and did the film school here at Biola, when he graduated, he graduated a year early from high school, and so he went to college at 17. And when he finished, you know, 'cause he had the benefit of the tuition remission here at Biola because of my faculty position-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... But he wanted to go an extra year, and he took courses in philosophy and art history. And he said, "Dad, the reason I di- I did that is because ideas go from philosophy to art to film and television."
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Scott Rae: And it takes, you know, and you're right, it takes, you know, it took hundreds of years for some of those ideas to make, to make it all the way through that. But I think he was onto something important, when he decided to just go for an extra year, shore up his education, because he knew, he knew, you know, what's downstream.
Erik Thoennes: That's right, and it goes in the other direction very often in the way we develop our view of things, and a lot of people get their philosophy and their theology from the films they watch, from the music they listen to. I remember my daughter was 10, and she listened to some Taylor Swift music, and all of a sudden, she's like, "Guys are the worst. They'll dump you every time." [chuckles] I'm like: "What are you talking about? You're 10 years old."
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: But she's adopting this Taylor Swift view of males, right? [chuckles] It is completely distorted, and so, and-
Scott Rae: Never mind that you've been married to your wife for 20, 25 years.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles] That's right. "Mom seems to like me, dear." [laughing] We're not all bad.
Scott Rae: Yeah. Here's, you know, here's... The encouraging thing is this article on the suicide rates for Gen Z.
Scott Rae: You know, Nietzsche, nihilism, all of that notwithstanding, it has-- it concludes on a very hopeful note, and here's what they say: "But there is a beacon of hope. The Gospel offers a transformative truth. We are not alone in our struggles. Our lives have profound purpose. Christ's love and sacrifice provide a path out of darkness, a reason to persevere, and a promise of eternal hope."
Erik Thoennes: That's beautiful. Yeah.
Scott Rae: And that... I think that's what the folks, Erik, in our third story need to hear about a little bit more. Because the, this story number three is, I found very hard to deal with. Now, this is, this has to do with the persecution of the church in Nigeria and China. We'll get to China in just a moment, but the first piece comes from our friend, Amin Ibrahim, who we've ha- You know, he's a, he's a specialist in Muslim studies and reaching Muslims. We've consulted with him on some of the things we're doing here at Talbot. But he had, he had a piece in World Magazine this week, where he laments how the world is ignoring the systematic slaughter of Christians in Nigeria by Islamic terrorists, namely Boko Haram. Now, I remember not too long ago, my w- my wife and I had the chance to meet some of the girls who had es- in Nigeria, who had escaped- ... From, a Boko Haram roundup. They'd rounded them all up. They were just teenagers. Rounded them all up, put them in trucks, and these girls, they jumped off the trucks and escaped, and we got a chance to have a meal with them-
Erik Thoennes: Wow
Scott Rae: ... And to hear about them and their experience was just, was unbelievable. Here's, The article points out, it points it out like this: "The scale of violence against Nigerian Christians dwarfs other conflicts, yet it barely registers in global consciousness." Now, the article reminds us of something that we had talked about a couple of days ago, that this slaughter of the Nigerian Christians was called out by none other than Bill Maher-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah
Scott Rae: ... This week on his program. He described the situation as, quote, "So much more of a genocide attempt than anything that's going on in Gaza." He pointed to over 100,000 deaths of Christians since 2009 and 18,000 churches burned. Now, Maher, he was pretty straight. He did not mince words about the lack of awareness, and he put it like this: "Where are the kids protesting this?" And he said, "If you don't know what's going on in Nigeria, your mir- your media sources are terrible."
Erik Thoennes: Yep.
Scott Rae: But he used a more colorful term than that.
Erik Thoennes: [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Now, he, in my view, he rightly accused the public of living in a bubble and oblivious to a crisis that should demand our outrage, and yet it's crickets around the world on this. Now, similarly, this past week, dozens of pastors and parishioners from one of China's leading house churches were arrested and jailed by the government. Zion Church, one of Ch- one of China's largest unauthorized churches, with church plants across the country... Now, my understanding is they've got about 40 different church plants across the country, found itself in the government's crosshairs. Its pastor, Ezra Jin Migri, I think that's how you pronounce it, its staff and many of its attendees were arrested. In fact, one of their staff is actually a Talbot grad, who I had as a student-
Erik Thoennes: Wow
Scott Rae: ... ӣƵ 10, 12 years ago. Technically, the Chinese Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, but in practice, it's quite different. The Chinese Communist Party permits only tightly controlled, state-approved congregations to act openly. Still, it's estimated that tens of millions of Chinese Christians worship in underground churches, these are also called house churches, of which Zion Church is one of-... Believing ones. All right, now this is, you know, I, we found, you know, my wife, my wife works for an organization that serves the persecuted church around the world, so I've got a special place in this, and it's, and it's on my radar, I think, more than the average person. But this is an easy one to sort of just push off the radar because it's so uncomfortable to think about. And I think we recognize the co- the commonality of faith that we have with these Nigerian and Chinese Christians, and recognize we're, not for an accident of geography, that could be us, too. And that's a te- that is a terrifying thought, I think, for a lot of people, and I know a lot of churches, you know, they don't, they don't wanna do much with this. They'll write a check, and, you know, that's basically it, and see, you know, "Leave me alone until next year." and a l- but there are a lot of churches that have, really have meaningful ministries and prayer for the persecuted church on a regular basis, and support organizations like Global Christian Relief, which my wife works for, support them regularly. And I, and I commend them for that. But I think it is curious to me that we don't hear much about what's going on in Nigeria, and I wonder, I wonder... I've got an idea about what the reasons are, but I'm kind of wondering your thoughts on that, too.
Erik Thoennes: So many aspects of this story bring to light things we need to think about, and a word I'm constantly thinking about for myself and others is perspective. What a perspective this gives to how we may dread a coworker rolling his eyes at us when we talk about our love for Christ- ... Compared to what believers around the world are going through because of their faith.
Scott Rae: And, and calling that eye-rolling persecution.
Erik Thoennes: That, that's right. Yeah. Let's be really careful with that word, and get perspective in that. But, it's, it's heartbreaking to me to hear these things, and I just think of passages of scripture like Hebrews 13:3 that says, "Remember those in prison as if you were bound with them." That, that's not-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Just anyone in prison. That's highlighting believers who are in prison for their faith. And in 1 Corinthians 12:26, "If one part suffers, every part suffers with it." The reason I'm not more brokenhearted and more concerned is because it is so easy to follow the lead of what the headlines of the day and the algorithms I happen to be fed by, and what it does and doesn't emphasize. And I hate the fact that I can be so influenced in what I think is most important by what those algorithms are feeding all of us all the time, and how tragic that the scope of this is just... I can't even take it in when you think of the numbers, and that our brothers and sisters in Christ are being murdered for their trust in Christ and their love for Him. And, and, you know, these things off- often have very complex reasons and causes and results. I don't wanna be overly simplistic about it, but at the same time, I went and read some Muslim perspectives on this, and I... Al Jazeera, 'cause I really wanna hear the whole spectrum as, that I can. But, but this just breaks my heart, and the fact that it doesn't get on our radar should concern all of us, that whatever it is, a lack of, as Bill Maher suggested, Jewish involvement makes it not much of an issue, or that it's just not a profitable thing to put before people because it doesn't keep their interest long enough to keep them clicking, because it's Africa, because it's, it's a faraway place that we don't know much about, or whatever the reasons are that makes a disconnect, we should not let that happen. And I love my citizenship as an American, but I first and foremost want to be a disciple of Jesus and a world Christian, that my brothers and sisters in Nigeria, I have a connection and a kinship with them that so transcends any connection I have with an American who's, who's not a follower of Jesus, that I'm heartbroken, and I, and I wanna pray. I, it's so easy to get in a very small world. That's why I have an email sent to me every morning from The Joshua Project to just read about and pray for an unreached people group in the world, or else my world become my list of things to do today, and I won't have the concern, the compassion, the perspective I need to be somebody who loves the nations, cares about the nations, and especially cares for the Christians around the world who are being persecuted. And, and so much of the American emphasis today with things in politics and the conservative resurgence and all these, I don't hear a ton about the nations. I hear about the American problem, the American values, but man, I just don't hear a lot about the nations. It's easy to say, "Oh, just a bunch of immigrants wrecking our culture." And I'm not saying we can't have opinions about borders and immigration done legally, but do we, at the same time, [chuckles] have a perspective of people around the world who are suffering greatly, and our concern and prayer and support, however we can give? I love that your wife works directly with persecuted Christians around the world.
Scott Rae: It's pretty encouraging. In fact, I've got a statement from their CEO-
Erik Thoennes: Beautiful
Scott Rae: ... Brian Orme. So I'd like to read it. It's a powerful statement, in my view. He says, "I've met with believers in Nigeria who've endured horrors few can imagine. Families massacred, women enslaved, pastors executed simply for refusing to deny their faith. The violence is systematic and faith-targeted. Under the UN Genocide Convention, genocide acts include acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.... Many attacks on Nigeria's Christians fit that description, though no formal declaration has been made. The tragedy is not only moral, but strategic. Nigeria anchors West Africa. Its stability affects regional security, energy markets, and migration patterns across the continent. Yet it's too often ignored because the crisis is complex, decentralized, and far from the world's centers of power and wealth. Stories of suffering in poor or less politically connected regions rarely command the same urgency as conflicts that touch Western interests. But neglect is a decision, too. When the world looks away from Nigeria, it allows a slow-moving genocide to continue unchecked. It's time global leaders and the global church treat Nigeria not as a distant tragedy, but as a front line that defines both faith and freedom in our time.
Erik Thoennes: Oh, that's so good. So good. And again, our demographic similarities, so often for Christians, define the people we see as family most, and it's so easy to find more of a kinship in the sports teams we root for than Christ. And I-- sometimes I think this, the Church has not helped us with this when it breaks us up in all these demographic chara- categories once we walk through the doors, as if that's where we find our affinity, whatever those are. But the fact is, somebody can be demographically just like I am in age, in background, musical taste, whatever it is, but if that person doesn't love Jesus, I have far more in common with a little girl in Nigeria right now, who culturally is very different than I am, but that's my sister.
Scott Rae: Yeah, and, you know, when we had a meal with those Nigerian teenagers who had escaped Boko Haram, the connection that we had because of our common faith in Christ was really powerful. And it was... You know, we we came from completely different cultures. I mean, there's so much about us that's different, yet the one thing we had in common was the thing that trumped all those other things.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And, and that, and that was, that was a very real thing. And I don't wanna underestimate how powerful that can be.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, and not to devalue the differences God's created, even in race, but, Peter tells us that we're a chosen race as his people, a royal priesthood, a people of his own possession. So we have a bond that lasts into eternity with believers in Jesus all over the world that transcends any of these demographic differences that need to shape the way we view what we value, who we love, and where our focus is.
Scott Rae: Yeah, maybe it's not an accident that the Bible refers to the people of God as family and siblings-
Erik Thoennes: Yeah. Yeah
Scott Rae: ... Which, as you know, in the ancient, the ancient world, siblings, you know, those blood relatives, that was as close as you got.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And to call, to call our brothers and sisters in Christ, that term was used intentionally-
Erik Thoennes: Mm-hmm
Scott Rae: ... To highlight the way brothers and sisters were viewed in the ancient world. And that's the, that's the goal, that's the ideal for what our relationships in the body of Christ should look like.
Erik Thoennes: And how awesome that that's the result of Jesus, not ashamed, being not ashamed to call us brothers, and we have-
Scott Rae: Yeah, we're here
Erik Thoennes: ... Sonship in Him, and we become co-heirs with Him. That's how that gets created. It's in our faith in Christ-
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm
Erik Thoennes: ... And our union with Christ that leads to that. And so it's not just some horizontal thing. It starts with that relationship-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... Jesus brings to us. It's awesome.
Scott Rae: All right. Anything you wanna add about the situation in China?
Erik Thoennes: Well, I've been grieved lately at how more and more aware I am by the way we are so shaped by the media we consume, and how that's being tailored to give us a perspective on the world that... I just heard recently. Remember the old phrase we used to hear, "If it bleeds, it leads?"
Scott Rae: Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes: That's what newspapers used to say, but now they're saying, "If it enrages, it engages." And they've realized that lust is a powerful motive to stay online, clicking, making money for people who are sending you these things. But they've found that there's an even more powerful motive, and that's anger and fear. And so if I can get you more and more angry and fearful, you'll stay online making me money, clicking away at these things that are being sent to you. And so I just hate the fact that we're creating perceptions of the world based on what people are using to make money off of us, and they know if you just keep feeding my outrage and my self-righteous anger... And it's often not righteous anger. [chuckles] It's self-righteous anger, like, "Can you believe those people did that?" And this they, what- however you refer to the they, you know? And, and there are, there are ways of thinking that are completely opposed to a biblical worldview. I'm not saying that's not true, but who's they? They are m- family members I have. They're my next-door neighbor.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: And so if I'm gonna turn them into a they that I demonize based on the outrage that libs of TikTok keep sending me, getting me, "Those people are completely nuts, and I hate them," and before you know it, you're not concerned about having them over and telling them about-
Scott Rae: [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: ... Jesus, right? You just, you just wanna annihilate them, right? And so... And it really shouldn't shock us that people hate each other based on the fact that we're fed data for that purpose all the time. And so whether it's this issue, where we're clueless about-... Genocide at massive levels, or just the way we perceive our next-door neighbor, who thinks very differently than we do. And again, I'm not saying we shouldn't oppose ideas and do everything we can to counter lies, but not in a way that just makes us angry people.
Scott Rae: We've got a question coming that's gonna deal with that same thing, too-
Erik Thoennes: Saw that, yeah.
Scott Rae: So hang on to that. Hey, before we get to questions, just a reminder to all listeners that this weekly cultural update comes to you from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. We've got master's and bachelor's programs in Old and New Testament, systematic theology, marriage and family therapy, philosophy, apologetics, science and religion, spiritual formation, and probably a few more that I'm missing. And visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn a little bit more of that. Also, just a reminder, next week, Sean and I are both on the road traveling, so next... Instead of the weekly cultural update, next Friday, we are gonna devote an entire episode just to answering your questions. We get a, we always get a backlog of these, and we've got a really good backlog that we recorded several weeks ago, and we'll be posting that next Friday. The Weekly Cultural Update will resume the following week. All right, you ready to take some questions?
Erik Thoennes: Yes, sir.
Scott Rae: All right. Here's a for, a former Secret Service agent recently was quoted as saying: "Don't bring your authentic self to work. I don't want your authentic self. I want your professional self, respectful, empathetic, competent self. You can bring your authentic self to a Thanksgiving meal with your family if you'd like." [laughing] Her concern is that being authentic is usually an excuse for our problems and a rationale for sharing controversial opinions. Instead, she encourages people to bring their genuine self, who genuinely cares about the mission and cares to do a good job. Do you think this is a helpful way of, to think about how we should be approaching our work? Do you think it's true that the cultural value of being authentic has gone too far?
Erik Thoennes: Yes, [chuckles] I definitely do, and I love this question. I love the way it was framed, and don't you love being old enough to remember all those folks who lived through the Depression and lived through World War II-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... That we grew up as grandparents and that older generation?
Scott Rae: For me, it was my dad. [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: Okay. Well, yeah, mine was in-- my dad was a Vietnam era, but-
Scott Rae: Oh
Erik Thoennes: ... But those folks had a completely different view of this issue of authenticity, [chuckles] right?
Scott Rae: Yes, they did.
Erik Thoennes: Authenticity? We gotta get food on the table.
Scott Rae: That's right.
Erik Thoennes: We, we got Nazis to fight. What are you talking about, [chuckles] authenticity? All right. I remember hearing a general say, when somebody asked him: "Have you ever gone through a midlife crisis?" And he said, "The Marines doesn't pay me to have a midlife crisis." [laughing] And so there are obvious downsides, you know.
Scott Rae: Of course.
Erik Thoennes: We, we talk about, you know, the father who never says to his kid, to his kids that he loves them, and he's putting food on the table, "So what do you think? I, of course, I love you." And, and so there can be a disconnect from stuff going on, and you can suffer in silence, and so there are downsides to that, too.
Scott Rae: Yeah.
Erik Thoennes: But boy, could we use [chuckles] a massive dose of that generation that's just tough and-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... And isn't so self-focused, that this idea of authenticity, which I think the way it's defined, is completely, overrated. In, in this sense, of course, we wanna be real. Of course, we wanna be honest. But the Bible says things like, "Be all things to all people." Doesn't sound like just be authentic and express whatever you're feeling in the moment.
Scott Rae: That's not a you be you moment.
Erik Thoennes: No, it's, it's the opposite, actually. It's be who someone needs you to be in the moment. And it says things like, "Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep." It means be so concerned about others that their burdens become yours. And there, this authenticity idea, it... Real, raw, honest, and some of the men's movement encouraged that years ago. I remember in the '90s, it was like, you just be wild at heart and just be yourself and... Well, yeah, okay, but it's not just, is it, is it true? Is it real? But is it edifying? Is it helpful? Is it wise? [chuckles] Is it good for the people you're with? Do we wanna say the right word at the right time with wisdom, not just authenticity-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... No matter what the outcome may be? And so, yeah, I'm all for backing up and saying, "Let's get a little bit more of that World War II generation coming back." Not to the extremes, but-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... But we're, we're, we're not just thinking about ourselves and our existential experience in the moment all the time. [chuckles]
Scott Rae: Yeah, I don't want the guy who tells his wife, "You know, I told you I loved you on our wedding day, and it's, and it's in force until I revoke it." [chuckles]
Erik Thoennes: That's right. Right. "I'll tell you if anything changes." [chuckles]
Scott Rae: That's right. Yeah, I'd say, just to add quickly to this, I think there's a time and a place for being authentic and to let, you know, kind of let that, let that down. But the workplace, I would say, is not a therapy session, and it's not a place for political or social activism. And if you wanna find yourself looking for another job, then I'd say, go knock yourself out and be your authentic self in the workplace.
Erik Thoennes: I would also say, actually, I think Thanksgiving dinner can be one of the worst times to be authentic, depending on what your family system is like. [laughing]
Scott Rae: Well, that may be, that may, that also may be true.
Erik Thoennes: That'll blow up stuff in ways you don't want to.
Scott Rae: All right, here's the second one: "I've appreciated your recent discussions regarding AI-generated video." We talked about that last week. "I wonder if there's perhaps a glimmer of hope or a silver lining in all this. With so many AI-generated videos entering our media, we are entering an era where we're unsure of what is real and what isn't. Given the pervasive, scientific, naturalistic, evidentialist worldview," and we may have to unpack that, "but in our culture, people have lost the ability to develop a discerning faith. Perhaps the roth- rapid growth of AI video content and people questioning belief in what they see in the media will force people to exercise their faith muscles more and recover from their atrophied state."... In time, people may come to the realization that a degree of faith is required regardless of one's worldview. I would love to hear your thoughts on this glimmer of hope. True, a glimmer of hope or not so much?
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, I think it's a great question. I love the question, and I think thinking about the way people, as we were saying before, come to their conclusions about what's real and what isn't, can be helpfully challenged in this. To say, "Wow, I just can't trust whatever comes across my computer screen or my phone," because it may be completely engineered to accomplish a manipulative purpose. And so I think making us more skeptical in light of the fact that these things can be manipulated in this way, may have a positive outcome. I just, I just want people to go to the sources that actually deserve our trust, and not just whatever comes across our screens. And so I think it's a fascinating question, but I think a healthy skepticism about what's thrown at us all the time is wise. And the only way for Christians to combat that is to have a biblically saturated discernment that is able to evaluate whatever comes across our screens. That's why we, when we were saying before about reading, even ideas that are unbiblical, can be very helpful in arming us to combat those ideas and critique them. And so yeah, I think we should always have a healthy, critical thinking that doesn't just accept whatever is thrown at us.
Scott Rae: Yeah, I do wanna make sure that the notion of faith is properly understood here, too.
Erik Thoennes: Yes, yes.
Scott Rae: It's not blind faith-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... But it's, it's, it's, it's faith that, trust that goes with the evidence, not against it.
Erik Thoennes: Right, and that description of what people base their decisions on, scientific, naturalistic, evidentialist worldview, in some ways, it, a lot, m- I would say the majority of people are no longer operating out of that. That's a more a modernistic approach.
Scott Rae: Right.
Erik Thoennes: I think postmodern took over in a way where it's whatever my gut says at the time. I'd like a return to some of those things more than [chuckles] than we have these days. And so people make decisions, but by saying, "I'm just... It's not what I think is right," period. And just their experience determines everything or their feelings at the moment. So-
Scott Rae: Much more subjective than before.
Erik Thoennes: Yes, we could use a little more rational, scientific [laughing] approaches to things these days.
Scott Rae: All right, here's a third one. "What is the biblical response to Christian brothers and sisters on social media who use inflammatory posts to provoke outrage? I'm troubled by the tendency of conservative Christian social media influencers to infer woke motives or condemn certain questionable choices of people who would consider them friends. It's as if these influencers want to ruin the reputation of good people and institutions. It feels like a modern-day witch hunt and a distraction from productive engagement with the world. At times, I understand there may be legitimate concern over someone's teaching. However, often it feels like outrage, some outrage is manufactured and dishonest."
Erik Thoennes: Bang!
Scott Rae: I'd say amen to that.
Erik Thoennes: Yes. I just... Huge concern I'm increasingly having is, I said a lot of it before already, I don't need to repeat it, but making us angry, validating our perspectives, demonizing those who disagree with us. And again, there's a place for standing for truth and being willing to die for it. I'm not minimizing that at all. I wrote a book on godly jealousy. It was the first book I wrote [chuckles] , so I think taking a stand like Phinehas, and Elijah, and David, and Paul, and Jesus do in the Bible, out of godly jealousy for His honor and for the truth, has a place. But in a way that follows the Bible when it tells us that our speech should be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that we may know how to answer each person in different situations, different circumstances. Oppose lies, hate deception, but love people clearly in the midst of it. Jesus says, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, and those who mourn, and those who are meek." That doesn't mean weak, it doesn't mean we don't stand for truth, it doesn't mean we're not bold and courageous, but what it does mean is we have a healthy assessment of our own sin, and don't have a self-righteousness as we do that, fueling the anger and outrage in other people to validate our own virtue in their eyes. I see a lot of that going on-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... People boasting how many followers they lost because they took a stand for Charlie Kirk, or, "I got, you know, I'm, I..." It, it's just, that's not how you build credibility, especially with a watching world wondering who we are as followers of Jesus.
Scott Rae: Well, yeah, if the goal is to win a person, sometimes you can win the argument and lose the person.
Erik Thoennes: That's right.
Scott Rae: And that's, in my view, that's equivalent to, you know, winning the battle, but losing the war.
Erik Thoennes: And picking our battles really carefully, and constantly saying, "Is this edifying? Is this helpful?" Obviously, we wanna pursue truth, but equally, we wanna pursue a unity in truth. It's not an either/or, and Jesus prayed that our witness would be grounded in our love for one another and our unity. And so if the world watches us stabbing each other in the back because somebody didn't say the right thing in the right way, at the right time, then we're undermining the Great Commission being accomplished in the way Jesus prayed it would. And so that's why I love it when somebody has a problem with me, and they come to me with it, and with questions, saying, "Hey, I'm not assuming you're a coward or an idiot, so why'd you handle it [chuckles] that way?" I can do that, deal with that all day. And so but, man, getting online and saying, "Did your pastor do this," or, "Is your church doing this?" And how is that helpful, especially within the people of God-
Scott Rae: Yeah
Erik Thoennes: ... And then the way we talk about other people.
Scott Rae: And being, you know, being critical of people based on second or third-hand hearsay-
Erik Thoennes: Yes
Scott Rae: ... I find it especially troubling. In fact, I think in many, in many cases, that's, that's just irresponsible-
Erik Thoennes: Right
Scott Rae: ... To do that.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: And I wanna say, if you, if you hear something about Biola, for example, pick up the phone and call somebody that you know there.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah.
Scott Rae: Ask them about it. Talk to them first.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, it- ... It's the, it's the great commandment. It, it's the golden rule, right? Do unto others as you have them doing to yourself. If somebody assumes something about you, hey, wouldn't it be great if they checked with you to get your perspective on that? [chuckles]
Scott Rae: What a concept.
Erik Thoennes: Yeah, and you may need to be called out. I'm not saying there's in, isn't a place for that, but done in a way that's seeking unity in the midst of preserving truth.
Scott Rae: Amen. That's a good word. [upbeat music] Erik, delighted to have you with us again. So good to have your insights.
Erik Thoennes: Always good. Always helpful to me.
Scott Rae: So, so thankful for how you, enable us to think biblically and theologically about these stories.
Erik Thoennes: Thanks, brother.
Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the podcast, Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture. If you've got comments or questions or suggestions for us, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podscat- podcast app, and please share it with a friend. And join us on Tuesday for my conversation with Dr. Rick Zimmerman on how the intricate design of the human body points to a divine designer. Thanks so much for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]
