Biola UniversityScott is joined by guest co-host Erik Thoennes this week to discuss:
- Marriage: A argues tech and economics have “unbundled” marriage; the hosts counter that a Christian vision roots love, covenant, and fidelity amid today’s easy-in/easy-out norms.
- Women’s happiness: An finds married mothers are about twice as likely to report being “very happy”; the conversation explores why (connection, purpose) while still affirming the goodness of singleness.
- Afghanistan: A outlines sweeping, codified restrictions on Afghan women under Taliban rule; the team urges informed, compassionate engagement.
Episode Transcript
Scott
Does marriage have a future? New data on marriage and fulfillment for women and a new study from the UN on the current state of women under the Taliban in Afghanistan. I'd say one story is moderately encouraging, another one very encouraging, and, and the third one, very discouraging. But these are the stories we'll cover today. We'll answer some of the questions that you all have. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and filling in for Sean, who is in Egypt this week, is my colleague at Talbot, Dr. Erik Thoennes. This is the Think Biblically Weekly Cultural Update brought to you from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Erik, welcome. Great to have you back with us. Really looking forward to hearing your take on some of these stories.
Erik
Thanks, Scott. Good to be with you.
Scott
So here's, here's the first one, which I, I found moderately encouraging. Does marriage have a future? From a publication called the New Atlantis, which is a ... it's a scholarly journal, but it seeks to connect science, technology, and humanity from two authors who are not Christian, to my knowledge, both employed by Harvard Business School. They claim that social trends going back to the Industrial Revolution are unbundling what used to be marriage's package deal. They cite the conventional wisdom for marriage rates plummeting, that women's lives are improving, working class jobs are becoming more scarce for single men, and the cost of marriage, particularly a family, are more daunting than they've been in the past. They even point out that sex is on the wane with Millennials reporting fewer sexual partners than their parents and even their grandparents.
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
However, these authors point the finger somewhere else, at technology, and specifically technology related to economic life. Um, so th- th- they ... These, I think are more subtle, maybe s- start more in the distant past, but, uh, just to, to briefly summarize this, in ancient times, nomadic times, marriage is centered around alliances among competing clans, primarily to keep the peace. Marriage was a ... In ... Once they settled, marriage was a way to produce economic assets and heirs, children for an ac- ac- agricultural society, uh, and heirs to the land w- that would pass on to succeeding generations. With the Industrial Revolution and urbanization, things changed again, separating the home and the workplace and children became seen more as net cost instead of net assets. The authors argue that marriage is changing again with digital technologies and assisted reproduction. So here's, here's their main point, and I'll quote the article on this. "The bargain that once defined marriage has now largely been rendered moot. Women don't need husbands to provide economic sustenance or even to have babies. Men don't need wives to have sex or to run the household. And all of us can find companionship outside the nuclear family. So marriage doesn't mean or bring what it once did. It's not primarily an economic equation anymore, or even necessarily a reproductive one." And this is the point that I found moderately encouraging. "Instead, what remains is simply but hugely an exchange of far simpler and more sacred goods, love, commitment, and fidelity." Right? Now, I'm really curious to hear your take on this.
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
I'm not asking you to be an economic historian-
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
... on marriage.
Erik
Right.
Scott
But, uh, I, I found the ... what it, what it concluded on, I thought was a pretty encouraging note.
Erik
It was. I, I was actually s- really surprised by the conclusion. It, it was quite a, uh, an historical survey of marriage as it's been in different cultures and in different times in human history, which i- which was interesting in itself. But then (laughs) when they basically said, "All the typical reasons for, to value marriage have evaporated, so what do we have left?" And they actually used the word love and something sacred.
Scott
Yeah.
Erik
Which we believe. But the entire time I was reading the article, I was thinking about how hard it is to value things when the reasons for them are reduced to economic, practical, societal realities. That was what was really interesting to me. And as Christians, we have profoundly sacred definitions and reasons to value marriage and go about it as something that we value. But, eh, I would love to know how they define the sacred and how they define love-
Scott
Exactly.
Erik
... and what their basis for those seemingly only enduring reasons that seem to be left from their perspective. (laughs) So I, I just was, uh, rejoicing in the fact that we have a foundational understanding from our creator of, of what marriage is that gives us a tremendous value for it. But it is fascinating how central it's been to, to cultures throughout human history as core in the fabric of society itself.
Scott
You know, this ... Yeah, this is the part I think, Erik, that makes it moderately encouraging, because they also point out that as a result of the economic factors no longer driving marriage like it used to, uh, that marriage now just becomes another option among many.
Erik
Yes.
Scott
And no longer necessary as an expectation, which I think it was. You know, when I got married, it, it was just ... it wa- you were just expected to get married.
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
In fact, I waited till I was 30 to get married back in the '80s and that was considered ... I mean, I was considered old-
Erik
Yeah, yeah.
Scott
... to get married.
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
And, uh, I think I, I fe- I felt some of that pressure of turning 30-
Erik
Mm.
Scott
... to get married.
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
Now, it happened that Sally came along at just the right time too.
Erik
Right. (laughs) Right.
Scott
Uh, uh, but if, you know, if men ... if women don't need men to have babies or financial security anymore, and if the only thing that remains is love, affection, romance and commitment-... then, according to these authors, the foundation for marriage and the future for marriage is on a pre- is on pretty shaky ground.
Erik
Yes.
Scott
Because if it's just one option among many, you can enter it and you can leave it as easily as you enter it-
Erik
Right, right.
Scott
... uh, which we've seen, you know, over the last, you know, 50 years, the divorce rate has also skyrocketed.
Erik
Right.
Scott
And we, and we're seeing other things that result from this too, like the, the Single Mothers by Choice phenomenon, uh, which I... that I find that somewhat troubling 'cause I, I like to, I like to think that the idea that kids have a right to a mom and a dad.
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
Um, and I under- you know, I certainly understand, I, I would call it noble and virtuous that we have single women adopting kids-
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
... from overseas-
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
... 'cause that's, that's a far better option-
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
... than, than, you know, staying in the system.
Erik
Right.
Scott
Um, but wh- when, the, the, the, the, the grand bargain has changed.
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
And what holds it together is not nearly as strong as it used to.
Erik
Right.
Scott
And this is the, this is the part that I've... again, it makes it only moderately encouraging because the authors point out that economic factors were much stronger factors in holding marriage together than what we would consider the sacred parts of it-
Erik
Right.
Scott
... love, fidelity, and commitment.
Erik
Right. E- even my grandfather, his wife died young and l- and he was left as a single dad with, with four kids, and remarrying felt like a matter of survival to him. He had to work.
Scott
Yeah.
Erik
He, he ha- how was he gonna pull this off? And so, he married my grandmother, uh, not long after his first wife died because when, when you lose a spouse through most of human history, running that family farm is gonna be awfully tough now. And, and so those aspects of it that made it core to society are fascinating to think about, but hopefully, as Christians, we're never driven just by the pragmatics, but equally, I hope we're not driven by "I really feel like I want this," right? You can go in the other direction and say from an experiential, emotional, psychological, "I feel lonely" or... and instead of realizing, "Wait, this is something that I should treasure because God created it for profoundly important things beyond itself." So when we start with our view of marriage as Christians, as something God created to reflect the relationship within Himself and to actually give a display of Gospel realities between Christ and the Church, now marriage, for us, can never just be reduced to pragmatics, or "I feel like this is important, I, I f- I love this person." Because like you say (laughs) , those feelings can be fleeting. So, so like you say, I, I really do appreciate the, the recognition, yeah, societal factors are helping us to not value marriage as much as we used to, so maybe something more important than pres- pragmatics is, is now driving it, but hopefully, it's not just left to the subjective feelings that we have about it now and it's a rom-com.
Scott
That's re- that's re- that's a really interesting take on that. You know, Erikk, I remember when I was, uh, in the pastorate, uh, I, I would ask couples that we were doing premarital counseling with, we would ask them, "Why are you getting married?" And I kept waiting for what I thought was the right answer.
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
And I didn't get it very often.
Erik
(laughs) Right.
Scott
And, you know, I r- in fact, I remember speaking on singleness to my singles group that I was pastoring.
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
And I was saying, I was upholding, I think, the, the biblical notion that singleness is valued.
Erik
Yes.
Scott
It's not a, it's not being a second-class citizen.
Erik
Right.
Scott
Uh, and s- (laughs) you know, and so I said, uh, the r- and then the reasons, you know, for that, it- from Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 7, um, and some guy shot up his hand, my wife sitting right in the audience, and he says, "So tell me, why did you get married?" (laughs)
Erik
(laughs) Nice.
Scott
And, and I said, "Of course, it's because..." well, I said, "It's not because I can't live without her-"
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
"... 'cause I, I, I had been doing that for 30 years-"
Erik
Right.
Scott
"... and she was quite capable of living on her own without me." I said, "I'm choosing not to live without her, but ultimately, the reason is because in my, in my judgment, we can serve the kingdom better-"
Erik
Amen.
Scott
"... together than we could separately."
Erik
That's it.
Scott
And I, I thought in my, in our premarital counseling, it was very rare that any- anybody had thought about kingdom reasons-
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
... for getting married. Now, of course, not that that's the only thing-
Erik
Right.
Scott
... 'cause, you know, I think if that-
Erik
Right.
Scott
... were the only thing, my wife, being the romantic that she is, would have been profoundly disappointed.
Erik
(laughs) Right, right.
Scott
Um, but, um, I mean, that, that, I think, is part of the answer-
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
... to this-
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
... in that we have, we do we have a, we have a deeper, I think, a deeper set of reasons for why marriage matters.
Erik
That's right, and that's the core of enduring when it's hard and we- when those feelings aren't flowing from your heart. And we, we have a wonderful engaged couples class at our church we offer every spring, and being next to the university, we obviously have a lot of-
Scott
We have a few.
Erik
... lot of folks who take us up on that, but my, my wife and I used to teach the first session, and I would walk in and every time, I would say the same thing, I would say, "I want you to break off your engagement." And they'd all look at me like-
Scott
(laughs)
Erik
... "What are you talking about?" And then I'd say, "Unless you're deeply confident that just what you said, you, you will honor God, glorify God, be more fruitful in kingdom work than you would have been single, because you can be abundantly fruitful single," as Paul, Jesus, John Stodd, Amy Carmichael, we could go on and on, has shown us. "So if you're not confident of that, and if you don't already have evidence for that at this point in your relation, if you think that's gonna happen once you're married, and it's not already happening, that you're both more like Jesus because you are in relationship with each other, you're more-"... kingdom-minded, fruitful in ministry, you're not so inwardly focused on each other that you're actually not more helpful to people as a couple. If you're not confident in that, you should break it off because you won't then have the enduring reasons for marriage that you're s- you're supposed to have.
Scott
Well, and then, and then everything else that presents those bumps in the road will end up being distractions-
Erik
That's right. Yeah.
Scott
...to the things, the things that matter most. I think the, i- in our view, that's what, that's what I refer to as that sacred connection.
Erik
Yes.
Scott
And the authors call it that.
Erik
Yes.
Scott
Um, you know, they say, "Shorn of the requirements it once entailed, what remains in marriage and what is being exchanged is love. For the long term, love intertwined with desire, love that has no greater use than its own existence." Okay? Now we might say-
Erik
Yes.
Scott
...it has some greater use to reflect-
Erik
Right, right.
Scott
...the glory of God, but th- and, and they call that the sacred connection. I think they're on the right track-
Erik
Yes, yeah.
Scott
...on that, but without the metaphysical, without the theological framework-
Erik
Right, yeah.
Scott
...for it.
Erik
As far as we know. Yeah, as far as we know, that, yeah.
Scott
Yeah, which I thi- which, you know, may- maybe that's a little bit of, uh, what we, what we might refer to as natural law-
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
...at, at work.
Erik
Seeping out.
Scott
You know, common grace. What do-
Erik
(laughs) Right.
Scott
What a concept.
Erik
Right, right.
Scott
In fact, something tells me you might've just talked about that in your theology class-
Erik
Yes, indeed.
Scott
...this morning.
Erik
Indeed.
Scott
Um, a second story is, you know, at first glance might seem just the opposite of where, of where we were in the first one. This is g- this is about new data on marriage, motherhood, and particularly women's satisfaction. This is from The Atlantic, from, uh, Jean Twenge, who's a well-known psychologist at San Diego State, someone we've had on as a guest in the past. And she talked about demographic trends. Uh, it's a study done and public by the... published by the Institute for Family Studies, 3,000 AmErikan women in... earlier in 2025. The results just became available. And one of the investigators in this was our friend Brad Wilcox, who's a Roman Catholic sociologist at the University of Vir- of Virginia, who we've, we've had on a couple of different times talking about, talking about men, talking about men and marriage. Uh, and this data challenges the conventional cultural wisdom that marriage and children are at odds with women's happiness.
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
Okay? Now the idea that this is the conventional cultural wisdom, in my view, is not particularly surprising given the culture of individual autonomy-
Erik
Yes.
Scott
...and that expressive individualism that, that has become sort of the air that we breathe culturally. Now what the, what the study describes, and we'll put, we'll put a link to the, to the data so, you know... Sean's, Sean's our resident data nerd.
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
So, uh, we'll let, we'll let you wade through the data. We'll, we'll cut to the chase on this, but here's essentially what they concluded. Married mothers are happier describing themselves, quote, "as very happy than unmarried women and those without children, twice as likely to say that they are very happy."
Erik
Hmm.
Scott
Married women are, are more likely to report that life was enjoyable most of, most or all of the time. Now, u- unmarried women were almost twice as likely to feel loneliness most or all of the time. And these results, interestingly, Erik, were duplicated with the, what's called the General Social Survey, which is a huge social survey done regularly, and another study that found that mothers with, with partners are less likely to suffer from depression. Now the factor they, they, they explore what might account for this, and they suggest a handful of things. They seem to be, one, the social connection of marriage, the sense of purpose in having children, and interesting, the one that I didn't see coming, the place of physical touch and affection-
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
...in a person's well-being. Now interestingly, in case sh- in, in case you're tempted to, to bring other things into the picture, the study factors out things that might, you might think, might think make, would make a difference like socioeconomic standing, education, employment status, you know, things like that. Now here's... Uh, Twenge concludes with this, that, "There are many reasons people choose not to have children or not to get married, but false messages about happiness should not be one of them."
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
"The articles I read referring to her, herself long ago were right that parenting and marriage can often be exhausting, but they ignore the sense of meaning that comes from parenthood and the connection of physical touch at the core of family life." And I love this punchline, "After all, an AI boyfriend can't hug you back-"
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
"...to say nothing of an AI child."
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
Right? Now, again, Erik, this goes back to what makes marriage compelling, and how do we situate marriage and children in a Christian worldview? Let's, let's, uh... help us maybe go dig a little deeper to think more, to think biblically about that.
Erik
I was once again noticing some real themes in the articles we're discussing today, and there's a similar one in this where the first article's putting an emphasis on marriage defined economically, historically, sociologically, culturally. This one is talking about the experience of marriage and parenting, and again, I, I love hearing that something God has created actually is something we find fulfilling and meaning giving and, and that, that the human touch experienced in that sort of family situation is good for us psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, and, and people actually experience that. Even ones who don't have the operating theological definitions, well, God made it, and there's a blessing that comes with it when you experience it. So I love that, but again, through the whole article, I keep thinking, "Okay, so we're now defining the worth of something based on how fulfilled I happen to feel based on it," which on one hand, of course, I love seeing human flourishing happening when something God has created is blessing us in that way, but again, w- how I'm defining that thing is the ultimate way I find worth in it.Because, as we all know, the amount of fulfillment I happen to feel changing the 10,000th diaper... (laughs)
Scott
(laughs) Zip.
Erik
That's right. It can, can be pretty lacking. So, so again, if we're grounding everything on my experiential, existential, uh, fulfillment that I happen to have right now or when I answer a survey, I think we're starting off on a pretty precarious foot. So, so again, I, I think once again we have reason to be encouraged with these sorts of findings, but I also wanna make sure we're realizing, well, whether we're basing it on economic practical realities or experiential, uh, you know, perception of fulfillment, we're still (laughs) not grounding things in the way God sees them, which endures, as we were just saying, in marriage, endures in having children on those days when you are not feeling it-
Scott
(laughs)
Erik
... as the kids say. So... (laughs) Yeah.
Scott
Yeah, this is, I'm sorry to break that to, you know, some of our single adults who are listening and looking forward to marriage. There are days when you won't be feeling it.
Erik
Yes, indeed.
Scott
And, uh, you know, I mean, we had... I mean, when our kids were young, I, you know, I used to walk into class. I was, I was team teaching with a single guy, and, uh, I, I'd walk into class just bedraggled. And when our kids were young, I mean, our, our kids didn't sleep through the night for months and months, and I, I rocked around for a zombie for, uh, I bet close to five years. Uh, and I know y- you were... y- yours was worse than mine because you started-
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
... you started with kids that were a lot more active than mine-
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
... having adopted them as what-
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
... ni- eight, nine year olds.
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
I remember you walking around campus looking like-
Erik
Looking like a zombie, yeah.
Scott
... you were, you were exhausted then.
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
And, uh, and I remember telling you, I said, "You know, the way... it's a good thing God designed kids not to do very much when they were-"
Erik
Yes.
Scott
"... when they were first born."
Erik
Yes.
Scott
Done for... you didn't, you didn't get that stage.
Erik
That's right.
Scott
Um, but he... I remember it... yeah, I remember i- i- him telling me later that he said, "You know, I've cut you a lot of slack in retrospect 'cause I realize, you know, what you were dealing with."
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
And just, that was just a time of life that was ju- it was exhausting.
Erik
Yeah, I remember my daughter-
Scott
Uh-
Erik
... we, we adopted her kids when they were eight, seven, six, and eight, and, and it was just challenging. And, and I remember my daughter and I, we were a lot of-
Scott
Well, th- they're pretty active at those ages. (laughs)
Erik
Oh, wow. It, it... and, and I was... my daughter and I are very similar. We, we both are fighters by nature, and so we... I, I would often find myself going toe-to-toe with an eight year old (laughs) using all my wits I had at my disposal in this ar-
Scott
And you, you thought defensive backs were challenging.
Erik
(laughs) Yeah, and so I remember her saying to me one time, it was this beautiful moment where we were... she and I were really struggling, and she said, "Daddy, you have no idea what it's like to be an 11-year-old girl." And I said, "Caroline, you're exactly right. I don't. And you have no idea what it's like to be a dad of an 11-year-old girl, so let's figure this out together." (laughs)
Scott
(laughs)
Erik
And so that sort of battle is what you have to get into, and, and, you know, one of the best things is my son is dating, uh, an amazing woman, and her father teaches here. And one of the courses he teaches is Theology of Marriage and Family, and my son took that course with his girlfriend's father-
Scott
Good for him.
Erik
... last semester, and the two-
Scott
Was she in it too?
Erik
She was not. (laughs)
Scott
(laughs)
Erik
They were both in my theology class last semester, but he had to write two papers for Dr. Lister, and, and one of them was, "What does it mean to be a godly husband?" I wondered if Rod ma- Rob made that assignment up just for Sam. (laughs)
Scott
Ah, I suspect.
Erik
But the other paper he had to write was, "What does it mean to change a diaper to the glory of God?" And if you're not working through those sorts of things, how in the world can you persevere with joy and gratitude in the midst of the grind of it, in the conflicts of it, and, and seeing my own sin in the midst of trying to be a godly father? And so if we're not grounding our parenting, our, our being husband and wife, w- w- if we're not grounding everything in these kinds of categories that give us the capacity for endurance and joy and gratitude and hope when things are really struggling, and, and that... You know, as a pastor, we deal with a lot of marriages in crisis, and getting down to what is this thing in the first place. W- why did you get into it? W- how are we gonna get through this crisis, this wishing you had grounds for divorce even though you don't? (laughs) How are we gonna get through this? Well, it's, it's by getting down to what this is in the first place. It... from God's perspective that glorifies Him, that calls us to a kind of faithfulness and perseverance that just my feelings or economic realities will never bring me to.
Scott
Yeah, I was... I would suggest that, uh, the, the way God uses marriage to chip away at the rough edges of your character will rarely feel fulfilling in the moment.
Erik
Absolutely.
Scott
Because, I mean, uh, I, I, I have never been, I've never been forced to take a deep dive into myself as I have in the last 40 years of being married.
Erik
That's right. And, and-
Scott
And, and it was, you know, some of it was not pretty.
Erik
Right. And parenting, I, I... my friend Dave Talley would always say to me, "Never forget that your kids are not the only project God's working on in this thing."
Scott
Amen.
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
Well, and I, I, I think, yeah, I love your point about, uh, you know, the assignment about diaper changing. I think one of the most profound things Martin Luther ever said is, "It is just as holy to change a diaper as it is to teach a Sunday school lesson to a child."
Erik
Amen. Amen. And that theology of vocation, that theology of the home, that's why when we went to the home where m- m- Martin and Katie lived and they did ministry around the, the kitchen table-... as this symbol. I mean, when I looked at that kitchen table, I, I just thought of the theology loaded into that. Because before that, they, they both wouldn't have been married, but now they can see marriage and ministry on a kitchen table as just as important as anything that goes on anywhere.
Scott
You know, Erikk, I wonder if, uh, the, the con- the conclusion that's drawn I find very encouraging with this, that it does contribute to fulfillment and satisfaction-
Erik
Yes.
Scott
... you know, much, much more generally. But I wonder if that puts marriage on equally shaky ground as the first story that we talked about.
Erik
Hmm.
Scott
Because what happens when it's not?
Erik
Exactly.
Scott
And it... You know, I've al- I've often felt like that our culture idealizes sex, and I think sometimes in our churches, we idealize marriage.
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
And we don't, we don't point out to people that marriage is essentially the union of two ri- miserable, wretched, self-centered sinners-
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
... who are trying to figure this out together.
Erik
Yep.
Scott
Uh, and in doing so, somehow, m- m- you know, mystically reflect the glory of God.
Erik
Right, right.
Scott
Which I'm, I'm still getting... My arms are wrapped around that one. Uh, but I... And I wonder, you know, maybe this is, uh, you know, putting it in cultural terms, but I think this would be an example of... And I don't think this is what they intend, but I think it could be read this way, of what, what I would call psychological egoism.
Erik
Hmm.
Scott
That's what, what, that's what's, that I, I, you know, what's in my self-interest is what's right, ethical egoism, part of that. It's, you know, it's, it's elevating self-interest among, among everything else.
Erik
Right.
Scott
And if anything, what I've learned from marriage and parenting is that with, with every child we've had, my self-interest dropped further down the list. (laughs) And, you know, and that, I found that, ironically, to be immensely satisfying.
Erik
Yes.
Scott
And I think the Scripture's really clear that the, you know, the, the, the search for self-fulfillment, focused on the self, is self-defeating.
Erik
Yes.
Scott
And it's only as, I think as Jesus put it, as, you know, as we deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him, as we invest... You know, He's this... You know, what does it profit a person to, you know, to, to-
Erik
Gain the whole world, yes.
Scott
... save his life and loo- yeah, and loo- and lose, lose their soul?
Erik
Right. And unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it won't bear fruit. The first will be last, the last will be first. The greatest in my kingdom are the foot washers. It, it's so upside down that it's countercultural. And, and man it's-
Scott
That is so... And I think it's somewhat counterintuitive.
Erik
Yes.
Scott
To-
Erik
And it's gonna be hard to build a really successful church with that message preached with any regularity, because that's not what people wanna hear (laughs) to... With even Christians, right? So, yeah, but, but we've gotta remember that the way up is down. It... The, the end of the story isn't the death.
Scott
That's right.
Erik
It's defining life through that. And so, so to, to have that understanding that there's nothing ultimately more fulfilling, more rewarding, more glorious than living according to God and His ways is so important. And not focusing on what we give up, which requires a lot of giving up, but I think you're on the money with this, Scott. This idea of self-fulfillment found whoever happens to be working for you... I mean, I will talk to people and say, "Ah, I tried God. It didn't work for me." Or, "I tried church, it didn't work for me." Or, "I tried reading the Bible and just wasn't doing it." And, well, that sort of dismissive mentality toward means of grace and God Himself, it... That's what it translates into. It's not just marriage-
Scott
Yeah.
Erik
... it's God, it's His ways, it... "Well, it wasn't working out for me," however that's defined.
Scott
Well, that, that's a, in my view, a bit akin to using a compass trying to find out where you're going, but the compass always points to yourself.
Erik
(laughs) That's right.
Scott
You're... Yeah, you're not gonna get a lot of direction there.
Erik
And you certainly aren't-
Scott
You know?
Erik
... gonna be a leader in any helpful way either. Yeah, that's great.
Scott
Well, and I think y- regardless of s- your, your point about, you know, finding ultimately our fulfillment in doing the things God calls us to do-
Erik
Yes.
Scott
... and in relationship to Him-
Erik
And ultimately Him, Himself, yeah.
Scott
... and identity being in Christ, whether you are single or married...
Erik
Right. Or childless or-
Scott
Or regardless of your-
Erik
... 15 kids or yeah.
Scott
... of your state in life.
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
And I think, you know, the... I think the idea that, uh, we are complete in Christ-
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
... period, hard stop.
Erik
Right.
Scott
And I think to look for another person to complete you... I mean, I've heard that preached in some churches.
Erik
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Scott
Uh, and I've, I've seen women noticeably squirm-
Erik
Right, right.
Scott
... when they hear that. Uh, but I think looking for someone to complete you is setting yourself up not maybe... Um, certainly for disappointment, but maybe for idolatry-
Erik
Absolutely, I-
Scott
... as well.
Erik
I teach on, on the love of God coming from a God who has every one of His needs met, and the amazing truth that as our needs are met in Him, we actually are able to start loving the way He does, not constantly transactionally seeking to get our needs met, but out of an, uh, uh, heart that overflows with love. And so, to make that point, I grew up listening to R&B music mostly, and Barry White, just amazing R&B guy, but I, in class, play his song You're My First, My Last, My Everything. And we listen to the lyrics of that song, (laughs) and he says, "You're my shining star, y- my kind of wonderful, that's what you are." I mean, "You're my first, my last, my everything." It... And I, I turn it off, and I say, "Hey, you wanna be loved that way, don't you?" And they all nod, and I say, "No, you don't."
Scott
"No, you do not."
Erik
(laughs) Right. We can talk to God that way. He's our first, our last, and everything. But if any mere human talks to anyone like that, run for the hills.
Scott
(laughs) That's right.
Erik
(laughs) Because you were never intended to be anyone's first, last or everything. So, uh, yeah, that, that ideal-
Scott
Yeah.
Erik
... of love that's so desperately needy is something we think we want, but we don't.
Scott
It's... That's very unhealthy. And that's not to say that, God forbid, if something happened to either of our spouses, that we wouldn't-
Erik
Oh, be devastated, yeah.
Scott
... feel an enormous loss.
Erik
Oh, yeah, I-
Scott
And the hole that that would leave would be-
Erik
That's right.
Scott
... staggering.
Erik
I remember when we were driving on what's called the loneliest road in AmErika in Nevada.And there was a guy on one of those recumbent bikes with all these gallons of water. And we drove by and I said, "That'd be me if you died, Donna." (laughs)
Scott
(laughs)
Erik
I'd be riding (laughs) through the desert trying to figure him out. But I also am confident. I would trust the Lord, and-
Scott
Yes.
Erik
... and my life wouldn't cease to have meaning or existence because she is not God.
Scott
Amen. Anything else to add on this?
Erik
No, we're good.
Scott
All right. This third story, Erik, just tore my heart out. And we've-
Erik
Me too.
Scott
You know, Sean and I have talked about this before. Uh, this is terrible news-
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
... in my view. This is the UN report on women in Afghanistan, entitled Gender Alert, August 2025, Four Years of Taliban Rule, from 2021 when they came back to, to power, until today. Let's just say it provides an in-depth analysis of worsening of women's rights in Afghanistan since their takeover in 2021, as, as though it could get, it could have gotten much worse.
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
Uh, it highlights systemic repression faced by Afghan women and girls who are enduring some of the most severe gender-based restrictions on the planet. The report's based on extensive research, surveys, consultations conducted by the UN Women and their partners. Now, there's... you know, I... we're gonna post a link to the report, so our read- and it's not super long either. Um, so I would encourage our listeners to read it and... if you, if you have the stomach for it.
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
It was pretty discouraging. Uh, but they, they cite a number of, a number of takeaways on this, namely the, the enforcement of restrictions on women is now nationwide. When the Taliban first took over, enforcement was more so I think in rural areas as opposed to the cities. Uh, but now it is all over the country. What... and what that says, I think, to the outside world, is that this an integral part of the, the foundations of what the Taliban holds dear.
Erik
Right.
Scott
And they... and it is not temporary, it's permanent-
Erik
Right.
Scott
... as long as they stay in power. Um, and it codifies gender control, is the best way to put it, in the law. They call the law, for the, uh, promotion of virtue and the prevention of vice. And I'm, I'm, I'm not sure about what the reality actually... we oughta turn that around.
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
Uh, because they have silenced women voice- women's voices. They have embedded discriminatory norms into the daily life of women. Uh, women's lives are more controlled. Uh, what they can do in public. Their voice in public is even... has even been restricted. They've limit- they've limited women's mobility without a male re- relative or a male escort. They've limited their access to education, healthcare, employment. They've limited their free speech in public. It's already significantly limited at home. Um, but it's... you know, wo- women are now... in, in some, in some parts of the law, are not allowed to speak-
Erik
Hm.
Scott
... in public. Uh, and th- these are being enforced. And then at home, deep-seated cultural norms, uh, restrict women's decision-making in marriage, their households. Domestic violence is increasing, not surprisingly, with fewer protections and virtually no support for women who suffer from domestic violence. Uh, even things like inheritance rights.
Erik
Hm.
Scott
Women under, under Sharia law actually have inheritance rights should their husband pass away, but culturally there's shame involved in women exercising those inheritance rights when their s- economic survival is at stake.
Erik
Right.
Scott
So the, the final, the final takeaway on this, which I found astonishing, is that despite all of this, 40% of Afghan women remain hopeful-
Erik
Hm.
Scott
... and actively resist through humanitarian work, advocacy, and other types of solidarity-
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
... with women. I just found... I found that just astonishing-
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
... that in the midst of this, you could have even a modicum-
Erik
Right.
Scott
... of hope. Uh, and so here's my question for this, Erik, is, you know, last year, in 2024, we heard a lot about the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza-
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
... and the West Bank. Why don't we hear more about this? Where are the, where are the protests around the world for the dismal, I mean, incredibly dismal, bleak state of Afghan women? I just... I find that astonishing that somehow this th-... and, and, uh, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on why you think this is, but that we don't hear more about this in Europe, uh, even in parts of the Middle East that are, are more, um, we would say more, more modernized-
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
... and certainly on elite campuses in the United States. Why, why aren't we hearing more about this? This doesn't seem to be a cool cau- a cool kids'-
Erik
No.
Scott
... social justice cause.
Erik
No. I, I think one of the reasons is fear, just flat-out fear, because everyone knows that there are Muslims who think it's completely right to kill someone who dishonors Islam or Mohammed. So I think-
Scott
Ma- male or female.
Erik
Yes. Oh, absolu- anywhere in the world.... that, um, Sham- Salman Rushdie will tell you that, uh, you may lose an eye or your life if you speak honestly about what you think about, not just these cultural realities, but the theological underpinnings of them. So I think some of it's fear. I think some of it is that in the West, we are naive and sometimes ignorant about ideologies that are very different than ours, and we almost have an assumption that people think the way we do about things, and if they don't, it's just some strange aberration or they're just crazy people. A- and so, uh, I think there's a naivete at times about how drastically different the worldview is and the understanding of men, women, humanity, those sorts of things. We, we considered another article this week (laughs) of Canada seeking to move towards secularism and outlaw prayer, and I read that and I thought-
Scott
In public.
Erik
Yes, in public, right. And I thought, "Wow, uh, as secularized as we've become in the United States, outlawing prayer and having a minister of secularism-"
Scott
(laughs) Yeah.
Erik
"... is so different than the world as AmErikans we've grown up in, where religious freedom is one of our cardinal teachings." And even though we're understandably concerned about that these days here as well, it's at another level there and I thought, "Wow, I, I need to remember that just our neighbors to the north have some very different, almost like France and a very intentionally secular culture, um, dealing with that."
Scott
That did come out of French-speaking Quebec-
Erik
Yes. Yes.
Scott
... by the way.
Erik
Right. And, and my friend Uche Anazor who's, who's from Canada, he and I talked about this a little this week on, he's on faculty here and, and just thinking through, yeah, they're really close and we think we're fairly, pretty similar, but some way there are real differences and the same thing in this issue. Uh, like, in my whole life I've seen this, this Israeli-Palestinian issue so often dealt with simply on a political level or simply on a sociological level or a psychological level and, and I was thinking this week as, uh, we were thinking about this article of Rodney King's just honest plea during the Rodney King riots where he said, "Can't we all just get along?" And there's something we love about almost a childlike simplicity in that. But there really are reasons we don't get along. (laughs) And if we don't address those reasons, it sounds nice to say, "Hey, let's all just get along," but there are really significant ideological reasons we don't get along and the, for the way women are treated and, and if we don't address those profoundly central and often theological and religious reasons by that, it's so dismissive to say, "Hey, treat women the way we do. What's your problem?" Well, they have a very different theology driving this, a very different view of the world and women and men and marriage and, and so, so it's so simplistic and in some ways I think even arrogant to say, "Hey, be Western. Don't be, don't be faithful to the way you're reading the Quran," right? Well, you know, if you're reading the Quran and, and it says things that would lead to Sharia law in some of the things they're implementing, well, they're just being consistent and let's not act like those foundational beliefs aren't there so we can just rush to a political sociological answer to this. And so again, I mean, the whole time I've been thinking about these articles this week, I just keep thinking of something we so believe here at Biola, ideas have consequences. Ideas matter. That's why we invest so much of our lives into the world of ideas here, because what, we know that the Holocaust didn't happen apart from fundamental ideas about humanity and the value of humanity and the way we determine the value of humanity and, and if we don't make those connections realizing that beliefs lead to behavior and love and knowledge are really connected and, and we need to understand why people do the things they do and address those foundational issues rather than just the more surface political issues and the, and the sociological issues.
Scott
Yeah, I think there's a pl- I think there's a place for making moral assessments of some of those consequences-
Erik
Yes. Oh, that's yes.
Scott
... of ideas.
Erik
Yes, indeed.
Scott
Because, because not all ideologies produce the same set of consequences.
Erik
Right.
Scott
They're, they're just not... It's ju- it's not just that you have a different opinion-
Erik
That's right.
Scott
... on this. These are deeply held religious views that govern the treatment of women in many of these Middle Eastern countries.
Erik
That's right.
Scott
And I think this is, you know, and we're not just saying ideas matter because we're, because it's in our self-interest to do that-
Erik
That's right, job security.
Scott
... as univ- as university professors.
Erik
(laughs)
Scott
And, but I, I do think we are, we are reluctant in our rela- more relativistic postmodern culture to prov- to provide assessments of somebody's underlying ideology.
Erik
Right.
Scott
We don't, we typically tend to live and let live as far as, as far as underlying beliefs. I remember when I was a doctoral student, uh, I was in a religion department and we had people, they were from all over the map and, and nobody got grief for their starting place.
Erik
Right.
Scott
It was just assumed that your st- your starting place, that's, you know, that's where you start from. They wanna make sure you're consistent with that. But, you know, the Buddhist woman, her starting place was just as valid as mine. Uh, and we had, you know, we had atheists in there. What they were doing in a religion department, I hadn't quite figured out.
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
But, uh, we were, it was, we were very hesitant to say anything negative about anybody's core worldview.
Erik
Right.
Scott
But what we forgot was that there's a lot that follows if you're consistent with your worldview.
Erik
Right.
Scott
And tho- those things really do make a difference.
Erik
Right, whether it's the caste system in Hinduism that, that creates these layers of value depending on the caste system you're in or if it's a Christian worldview that isn't applied well...... a la slavery-
Scott
Yes.
Erik
... among those who would have called themselves Christians, or-- and that's really so much of what we do here, isn't it? I'm, I'm constantly trying to get my students to think about, what do you really believe? I know, I know we're all Christians here, but what do you really believe and is that actually being seen in the way you talk about women with the guys on your floor? Is, is that really working itself out in the way you think about your material possessions? Eh- because it's one thing to hold beliefs. It's another thing to actually hold them in a way that ends up affecting your life. And so, in all of these articles we've been talking about, I've been thinking about how much ideas are at the core of all of these things. And first, becoming aware of what your ideas are. What are your foundational assumptions? And what you said, your starting point, we all have one. We all have a basic authorities. For some of it's our gut. Or it's Freud or a 10th grade English teacher who had a big impact on me, or Oprah, or, or-
Scott
(laughs)
Erik
... somebody's sort of my foundational go-to. Something is my go-to for where I find truth. And then we can say, "Well, is that a really good starting point? Is that something that you do wanna base your whole view of everything on? Is that worthy of your trust?" Mine's the Bible. Mine's my understanding of the world through the Bible. So, what's yours? And let's, let's compare. Which one explains the human condition better? Which one leads to the kind of human fulfillment we were talking about better? We- w- which one answers the big questions of life (laughs) better? But let's first be aware of what our starting points are and then evaluate whether they deserve the trust I'm giving them, and then evaluate the kind of life they end up leading to.
Scott
Yeah, and I say, uh, ultimately if, if women are made in the image of God-
Erik
Yes.
Scott
... then they have equal dignity with men, equal and, and re- regardless of socioeconomic status, regardless of, of, of anything else, they have equal status before God as men and deserve, I think deserve to be treated in a- in accordance with that.
Erik
Right.
Scott
All right. Anything else on that?
Erik
Well, and, and if that's not what you believe, and, I mean, there, there is plenty in the Quran that devalues women, that does put them in a inferior status, in creation, in daily life, in eternity, and, and plenty even from Muhammad's life that bears out terrible treatment of women. So now, there are different ways of interpreting that. Not every Muslim holds to that, but a whole lot do hold to ... And that's why I don't even use terms like radical Islam or extreme Islam, right? I mean, I think they could have a good argument. No, this is faithful Islam. This is Quranic Islam without messing with it and domesticating it. (laughs) And so I almost have a level of respect for people who are saying, "I'm gonna do it. If, if that's what it says, (laughs) that's what I'm gonna do." But let's, let's come to it with a different way of thinking and, and critique it for what it is too.
Scott
All right. Just a- and before we get to questions, just a brief comment. Uh, last week, Sean and I commented on a Energy Department report on climate change, and I predicted a flurry of critique of their report, which did come out this week. Several hundred scientists signed a letter offering harsh criticism of the report, charging the authors being- with being selective about the facts and with, with bias. So there's ... you know, there's ... I just wanna, I just wanna make, make our listeners aware that we are aware that, uh, the, en- Energy Department's report does not necessarily represent the unified view of scientists ar- around the world. So, uh, we'll, we may have more to talk about in the weeks to come on that. All right. Questions? We have some pretty good questions here, I would say. Um, here's the first one. "Thanks for your podcast. It's always thought-provoking and biblical." All right. I'd say-
Erik
Nice.
Scott
... moving along to the next one.
Erik
Yeah. Here we go.
Scott
Yeah. "My question for- is for, for, for someone in my own circle of friends and mentors, but I thought it'd be good to get an outside perspective. What should a person do when they feel called to do something, but doing so would put his or her livelihood on the line? If I truly believe God has called me to something, then the answer seems simple, trust and obey. However, I think the question is tougher when a person's career is in jeopardy. But what if God calls someone to do something, make a s- like make a statement, stand up to a boss, or publish something that would force him or her to lose their career?" Erik, if this was a person in your church, how would you advise them?
Erik
Well, I would wanna ask about 30 follow-up questions to give specific help to that person. I think it's important to be willing to take steps of faith that may be very costly, financially, um, interpersonally, in, in just your standing in society, wh- whatever it takes, Christians need to be willing to take courageous stands and, and take the hits that come our way because of it. And I think we can be pretty cowardly sometimes in that way. And so the examples he gives, I would hope we would have a boldness and a confidence to speak the truth we believe God wants us to. Another aspect of this, though, is picking our battles wisely, understanding the sphere of influence God has given us and being faithful with that and not feeling like we need to try to put out every fire or correct every error on the internet, or we're not being faithful somehow, and to be wise. Wisdom is what we need here, and so we need prayerful, seeking the Lord and leading. We need input from wise people to help us make these kinds of decisions, and we need to be wise as serpents and, and innocent as doves in this, to speak the truth in love, but to do it with wisdom.And that's, that’s the daily application of walking with God and that’s, that’s the key to the whole thing. Walk with God, have a healthy holy fear of Him, which the Bible says is the beginning of wisdom. And so cultivating that intimacy with God, so that in the moment or in the big picture, we're able to be faithful in the ways He calls us to. And also, don't impose the particularities of faithfulness on other people because it- it may look different for different people. So in some industries, say if you're in the entertainment industry, flying under the radar a little bit more or, or in certain areas, you have more freedom to be forthright than others. And so just being wise and- and choosing your battles wisely, choosing the timing wisely, and making sure your heart's in a good place, whatever the- the controversy may be.
Scott
Yeah, you can't- can't die on every hill.
Erik
Right.
Scott
So yeah, I would... I'm not sure exactly what this something you were called to do-
Erik
Yeah.
Scott
... is that this person's referring to. That would be really helpful to know that. I'd say if it's a sense of calling to a different career path, you know, that's one thing. If it's something ethical or legal, I'd say that that's different. And I would encourage the s- I would encourage the person at- if this is the, if this is the issue, don't at the first hint of legal challenge walk away. Keep your place at the table until you're sure that you have a hill that you've got to die on.
Erik
And at least in this society, I think we tend to have a- more of a place at the table than we think we do. We can get a victim mentality as Christians too-
Scott
Yeah.
Erik
... to think everybody's against us. Well, I- I- I think generally, we have a lot of freedom to bring our faith into the public sector and into the public school system in- in the right way with the right attitude. And the other thing I would say is think about how you're wired. If you have a high-risk tolerance, it's easy to assume like the risky thing is always the faithful thing, and that's not necessarily true. And if- and if you have a low-risk tolerance, you're-
Scott
(laughs) I'm glad of that.
Erik
(laughs) Right.
Scott
(laughs)
Erik
And if you have a low-risk tolerance, sort of just how you're wired, don't assume that God doesn't want you to step out and do something that feels risky. And so, we can assume the- the costly thing is always the faithful thing. That's not necessarily true. Sometimes going to work, being faithful, uh, i- is- is what God has for you.
Scott
Is fulfilling a Biblical obligation-
Erik
Yeah, exactly.
Scott
... to provide for yourself and for your dependents.
Erik
Right.
Scott
All right. Hope that's helpful. Uh, here's a second one. Says, "Thanks for your recent pod- recent podcast, 'How Much Can Christians Compromise on Sexuality?' I'd like to ma- I'd like to follow up and make sure I'm correcting the dots correctly. One, God's moral law in Leviticus 18 to 20 has not changed. Two, any time we see the term sexual immorality used in the New Testament, it's referring back to what's laid out in Leviticus 18 to 20. So, can we say that the term as defined in Leviticus 18 to 20 is- is defined there? Therefore, when people say that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, they're wrong because He actually did since He refers back to the law when He talks about sexuality. Is that a good summary?"
Erik
Hmm.
Scott
How- how do you think this person's connected the dots?
Erik
Uh, I- I think fairly well. I- I listened to your, your, uh, conversation you had with Sean about it. I thought it was really well done. But I think, yeah, I- I think there's more to say than that, and I- I think it's important not to allow, "Well, Jesus never said it, so it must not matter." Jesus never said anything about pedophilia.
Scott
Right.
Erik
Never said anything about pornography or bestiality. I mean, so if that's going to be our standard, well, wow.
Scott
Yeah.
Erik
Is that re- So we need to have the whole New Testament. That's why I really think red-letter Bibles are a bad idea, because they give the impression when you've got a Bible within a Bible that it's somehow more authoritative than what Paul says or John says.
Scott
Yeah.
Erik
So, so, eh, that Jesus never said anything, it just doesn't fly, uh, a- as a basic standard for what's moral and, and what isn't. But also, uh, understanding, just like you- you guys said in the- in the conversation you had, the- this is a broad category of sexual immorality that didn't need to be spelled out because it had been clear all along.
Scott
That's-
Erik
These things weren't being challenged.
Scott
... that's the point.
Erik
Yes. And so, so the morality was understood. And until it's up for grabs, even within the Church, we don't have to make a statement on it because we all know that this is out of bounds. So, so I th- I think that's an important distinguishing thing, too. But also realizing that we need to appreciate the Bible in its context and realize that the old covenant had laws that Jesus fulfilled but the moral laws continue as an expression, not a fulfillment of our righteousness before God, but in- as an-
Scott
Yeah.
Erik
... expression of representing Him and His ways now.
Scott
Yeah, I- I- I- with trepidation, I- I'm gonna come after a theologian to make a theological point. Uh, but I think what we meant in the- in the conversation was that Jesus doesn't directly address sexuality except in Matthew 19 about divorce-
Erik
In a positive way, yeah.
Scott
... and remarriage. Yeah.
Erik
Right.
Scott
And there, the appeal was to Genesis 1 and 2, not explicitly to Leviticus 18 to 20, but those- I think you pre- said it right, that, uh, Leviticus 18 to 20 was in the- it just was part of the air that people breathed in first century Jewish culture.
Erik
Right.
Scott
Uh, and so there was no... Un- until it got challenged, which it did with the- with the laws on divorce because there was debate about that. Jesus does directly address that, though it's in res- it's specifically in response to a- to a- to a question.
Erik
Right, I mean, you could argue that Jesus never explicitly condemned racism, but He gave such a foundational understanding of the kingdom view of humans that of course it's ruled out.
Scott
Yes.
Erik
Right? And so, (laughs) so again, that way of arguing is deeply troubling to me and...And so, th- that's the thing. He... In Matthew 19, he gives a n- a wonderfully positive view of male, female in creation, marriage, finally gets to the ethical question about divorce after he lays all-
Scott
That's right.
Erik
... that positive foundation. And, and so, so that gives the basis for seeing sexual morality for what it is.
Scott
All right. Here's a third one. I'm curious to hear your take on this one too. "I'm a Biola alum, just began my 19th year teaching public high school science. I knew when I began that the public education system might be hostile toward my faith. But by God's, by God's grace, with my wife's encouragement, I decided to try to be a light in the darkness."
Erik
Mm-hmm.
Scott
"Recently, I've become increasingly unenthused, discouraged, and disheartened about our decaying system. I've been trying to leave public education for a more God-honoring industry, but have not been successful. Should I keep trying to leave, or is there a point where I just shake the dust off my feet and move on to the next thing?"
Erik
Well-
Scott
Pastoral advice here.
Erik
Th- this relates to the first question and knowing what's right for this brother, and I, I don't know. But let me give my opinion. Brother, hang in there. We desperately need lights in dark places. And I, I feel this way about fleeing, people fleeing Southern California too. I... Again, I know there are good reasons to do that, but I just so regularly hear Christians say, "I'm out of here. I'm tired of the politics. I'm tired of it." Well, this is where we need you.
Scott
Yes.
Erik
And, and why do we wanna (laughs) go to places that are easier? And I understand, again, there are good reasons, but... I have a dear friend, he's been, he's been teaching for over 30 years in the public school system. He had a principal the first day, had never even met him. He, he... This new principal walked in his office, looked at him, and said, "You Christians are so judgmental."
Scott
Yikes.
Erik
It's the first thing the guy ever-
Scott
Yikes.
Erik
... said to him. He, he talked about abortion in class in a way that was honest about what it is. They put him o- they suspended him. He didn't do anything wrong. He was telling the kids what it is. Uh, he has had more battles. He had to... As people... But after 30 years, he's seeing amazing fruit right now.
Scott
(laughs)
Erik
He hung in there, faithfully seeking to serve God and in... And I, again, I'm not telling anybody what they need to subject (laughs) themselves to, and I know it can be tough, but, but what a great place to be. And I, I have no doubt you're being more of a light than you even realize. You're being more... I, I think in heaven, you're going to find out way God has been work- ways God has been working through your witness and your presence in ways you're not even aware of. And, and I pray that God shows you some glimpses of beautiful fruit that I bet is there.
Scott
Yeah, that's a great word, and again, great pastoral advice. I tell this, brother, I appreciate your investment in the public schools and your students, and you will probably have an impact and legacy with them that... Much greater than you are aware.
Erik
Amen.
Scott
So hang in there as best you can.
Erik
Amen.
Scott
All right. Good stuff. Erikk, so appreciate you being with us. It's great to h- great to have you again, and I so appreciate your insight and, uh, helping our listeners think biblically and theologically about some pretty tough issues.
Erik
Thanks, Scott. It's a privilege.
Scott
This has been the Think Biblically weekly cultural update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and online, master's programs in Bible, theology, uh, apologetics, philosophy, spiritual formation, pastoral ministry. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you'd like to submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover, or guests you'd like us to consider, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. And please keep your questions coming too. We got, we got a, a nice backload of really good questions. If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app, please share it with a friend, and join us on Tuesday for our regularly scheduled episode. In the meantime, thanks for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. (uplifting music)
