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Scott Rae: Welcome to the podcast, “Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture.” I'm your host, Scott Rae, professor of Christian ethics at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University.

Sean McDowell: And I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell, an author, speaker and apologetics professor also here at Biola University.

Today, we're here with Tim Muehlhoff, a professor of communications, also at Biola University, and I'm just gonna show my bias, one of my favorite people.

Tim Muehlhoff: Aw, I like you, Sean.

Sean McDowell: Thanks for being here, Tim. And I'm not even trying to get class credit, so. You have such an important voice today, speaking truth but with winsomeness, I think with clarity, with generosity, and you wrote a book recently. You gave me the privilege of endorsing it. I think it's fantastic, called .

Tell us about the heart of why you felt the need to write that and really what it's about.

Tim Muehlhoff: I think one of the reasons I wrote it with my co-author, Rick Langer, also at Biola University, is that we're frustrated just like everybody else. There's a study that came out about a year ago that said 69 percent of Americans feel that we are at crisis levels of incivility, that we've lost the ability to talk to each other. And think about it, at a time we need to talk to each other as Americans about transgendered issues, about the nature of marriage, about immigration, about climate control. These are huge issues, and now, we've just lost the ability to do it.

People aren't just wrong today, they're evil. And when you have that kind of an attitude, there's not much communication that's happening. We wanna return a sense of winsomeness. Let's have some conversations, and whatever happened to laughing as we talk? Whatever happened to not taking ourselves so deadly serious as we talk about very serious issues?

Scott Rae: Now, Tim, I take it you hold that the winsomeness climate culturally has deteriorated in recent years. What do you think accounts for that step backward in the last couple decades?

Tim Muehlhoff: I just read an interesting interview with Alan Jacob, who's a Christian intellectual, and I like what he said. He said, "I don't think we're necessarily more incivil today." I mean, there's some great examples of American politics, people challenging each other to duels and even theological disagreements between Luther and certain leaders of the Catholic church, where they just got nasty. Stuff that I could not even repeat on this podcast. That's how bad it was. But here's what Jacob says that I agree with. It's because of the internet that two things have happened. One, we're constantly agitated. When I open up my browser and I go right to CNN, USA Today, I get all of these disagreements and it just agitates me. Second, there is something called disinhibition, which means when I sit down and write that email or send off that tweet, I would never say the things I'm about to say if we were face-to-face at Starbucks.

I would tone it down just because we're in Starbucks, and I wouldn't raise my voice. But when I'm sending off that email, or a comment in a comment section of an online article, I just let it rip because I don't know the person I'm necessarily talking to. That disinhibition, I think, has raised our level of hostility and how quickly we start conversations in really harsh ways.

There's a guy named John Gotman, a communications scholar, who talks about the harsh start-up. And I think today, because of the internet, man, we have harsh starts-up. When we talk about the president, or different issues, man, we're at high levels of aggressiveness right outta the gates.

Scott Rae: It seems like, Tim, we either have harsh start-ups, or no conversation at all.

Tim Muehlhoff: That's right.

Scott Rae: Because people are so ... they're so afraid of that kind of rhetoric. One of the things I liked about the book was you've got a lot of stuff that's in the middle.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Rae: Thankfully, we have more options than those. But let's follow up on the harsh start-ups for just a minute. What are some of the ways in which we can unintentionally, I take it, although maybe sometimes it's intentional, but unintentionally, put people on the defensive during a conversation about something controversial?

Tim Muehlhoff: I think we do it by not believing the best about you anymore. I believe actually the worst about you. You don't care about the American flag, and that's why you would support a Colin Kaepernick taking a knee. You don't care about our veterans. Right? There's no nuance in that. I've basically said, "Hey, you support Colin Kaepernick taking a kneel during the anthem? You don't care about democracy. You don't care about our flag, about the soldiers who have given their lives." Man, that's a harsh start-up.

And I wanna make the argument from a communications standpoint, people are seldom that black and white. There's a lot of nuance when it comes to very difficult issues. You support transgendered bathrooms, so you don't care anymore about the poor mom who's trying to go to the bathroom with one of ... it's like, whoa, wait a minute. I do care about her; at the same time, I do care about transgendered people within our community. We've lost that kinda nuance, Scott. Right? You're either all for the president, or you're all against the president. You're all for the flag, or you're all against it. Man, that's a hard place to live.

Sean McDowell: Tim, I love hearing you say believing the best in other people. One of the things my father taught me consistently, and I'd see him model this in all sorts of ... and say, "Son, assume the best first." And we've lost that. I also wonder if you'd comment on this, how much is the harsh rhetoric due to the fact that we just have broken lives because Rick Warren said, "Hurt people hurt people." And there's a lot of hurt that's going on in our conversation publicly and online. Do you think that contributes to it?

Tim Muehlhoff: Sean, I really do. I think God was so wise to say, "You need Sabbath rest." And people who don't have Sabbath rest, when you're living busy lives that seem disconnected from everything, and this disconnectedness adds to relational hurt, unresolved conflict with the people around you, then you head into a difficult conversation ... I have no reserve left anymore. Right? I'm just tired spiritually, I'm tired emotionally, and I'm a little bit frustrated that I listen to these national dialogues, but I don't get to have a voice in it. So when somebody does bring it up, like, “Oh, finally, I get to say what I believe about the flag and people kneeling. I get to talk about this issue and you bear all the brunt of my pent-up aggression because finally, I get to unload on a person.” And that means that's a pretty harsh conversation.

Sean McDowell: Do you think political correctness weighs into this? Because I sometimes think that there's a fear to say the wrong thing and you'll be dubbed racist, you'll be hateful, you'll be bigoted. And so people go online and have the sense of anonymity and they just go ballistic, saying all these things they fear to say in other forums.

Tim Muehlhoff: One of the best classes, Sean, I took at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, was from a guy named Michael Eric Dyson. He's on CNN all the time. And the class was on gangster rap music, believe it or not. The politics. I knew nothing about gangster rap music walking in.

Sean McDowell: Well, you strike me as the gangster rap kinda guy. You have that vibe.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, I actually look like a Gap representative, right? So, I walk in this class. I don't know anything about 2 Live Crew. I don't anything about race theory. I don't know anything about the deep racial divides. I'm a pretty secluded, comfortable, part of the dominant culture, right? I don't know anything about these issues, but I'm getting introduced to it. So, Dr. Dyson did something the very first day that I loved. He got up, and he said, "Listen, I absolve all of you from saying it perfectly."

Sean McDowell: Wow.

Tim Muehlhoff: And I thought, what a great way to start the conversation is, "Listen, I know you're not gonna say this perfectly. This is brand new material. We have a lot of diversity in this classroom. But I absolve you. Just say it." And I thought that was really good, and I think we've lost that, Sean. In the land of microaggressions, which I don't want to get rid of, I don't wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater, but I think we're now like, "I'm not even gonna say a word about race or gender or sexuality or homosexuality because I'm sure to offend somebody, so I'm just gonna keep my mouth quiet." I just think we're called to be ambassadors for Christ. We're called to have these really hard conversations. But I get that we've now become tentative because I do not want to be a part of this culture war today. So we just keep our mouths quiet. Live out my faith and never say anything and that way people can't critique me.

Scott Rae: Tim, how did we get to the place culturally where disagreement on some of these controversial issues constitutes oppression, hatred, bigotry, and so on? Because I think it didn't used to be that way.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, I think we afforded more goodwill to each other. And let me say an indirect answer to that question, Scott. I do think about politics in the past. People still disagreed, but they knew their wife's anniversary. They knew their birthdays. So there was the relational level that we still had, right? Communication is always broken up into two areas. One's my content. That's what I believe. But second is relational. That's the amount of respect between two individuals sympathy. And I think that's what we’ve lost today a little bit is I don't have this relational connectedness anymore. Thus, all we do is talk on the level of ideas, and the Harvard Negotiation Project said one time, a great quote from those guys, they said, "All we do today is trade conclusions with each other. We don't share how we arrived at the conclusion." So we don't give the back story. That's why I think today is, man, we're just slamming ideas and not taking into account that it's a real-life person presenting these ideas and are committed to their ideas. I think today we've lost the relational level more than anything else that we ...

And that's what winsome persuasion is, that's where I claim the relational aspect of communication.

Sean McDowell: Could there also be a component where we used to be able to separate who we were from what we believed? Now there seems to be a sense where if I disagree with your beliefs, I'm delegitimizing you. Is that a piece of it as you see it?

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, and that's a part of sexual politics I think that has kinda gone off the rails a little bit, is that I am my sexual identity. And I don't wanna minimize that. I would say my sexual identity's a huge part of who I am as a person. But to say that if you disagree with how I view my sexual identity, now you're attacking me as a person. Man, that's really a hard way to go.

I do some corporate training and to say to people you have to divorce yourself from your ideas to a certain level because otherwise we're never gonna have good conversations. Now, when we're talking about that, we're talking about the communication climate between two people. That the climate is strong enough that I can sustain you disagreeing with my ideas even though it's really important, but it's not a critique of who I am. That's a very mature communication style that I think we've kinda lost a little bit today.

Sean McDowell: So, let's talk about how we communicate authentically today, given all these factors that make it more difficult. I heard you in the forum at Biola, it was Barry Corey, I think it was Professor Cleveland —

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, from Duke.

Sean McDowell: From Duke University. Great conversation, and you said you had been asked a bunch what is authentic communication? And you said it's genuinely not ... correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not having a conclusion as you go into a conversation. Now let me push back on that. You tell me where you think I miss. It seems to me that I can come into a conversation with conclusion about what I believe, but an openness to change if somebody's persuasive and makes a good point. So, I can have a conversation with an atheist about the resurrection, right? I already believe it, but if you really could show me that it wasn't true, I should change my beliefs. So, talk to me about how your definition might push back a little bit.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, Sean, I totally disagree with that idiotic comment. But no, no, I totally agree —

Sean McDowell: I feel like you're attacking me.

Tim Muehlhoff: Because I am. And I just got my red belt in kung fu, so yes. No —

Scott Rae: I'm gonna have to step in and mediate this here shortly.

Tim Muehlhoff: Thank you. Scott's showing me the cover of my book right now, Winsome Persuasion. No, Sean, I absolutely agree with that qualifier. I think that's a great one. Here's what we get. As Christians, I head into a conversation fully convicted in what I believe, and there is nothing — I've already determined this — there is nothing you can ever say that would ever dislodge me from my belief. I don't think that's an authentic conversation. There's a quote we use in the book, "An Episcopalian said of a Baptist, 'I can't listen to you because what I think you're about to say.'" I love that quote.

Scott Rae: Well said.

Tim Muehlhoff: So, I agree that I can have strong Christian convictions, but I don't know what your perspective is yet on the existence of God or your definition of marriage or sexuality. If I already head in saying, "Listen, I'm gonna be polite as you talk and I'm gonna nod, but there's not one thing you can say that will make me reconsider any of my beliefs," I don't think that's an authentic conversation. Now, I get hit pretty hard with that because people say, "So, is it possible that you could be wrong about God's existence? Is it possible you could be wrong about Jesus being the only way to get to God?" And let me just say, the answer is yes. I could be wrong. Now, I don't think I am. I've been studying this a long time, but it is possible that there's something you say that causes me to revisit certain beliefs that I have. Otherwise, why have this conversation? Let's just email each other. Because these are competing monologues, not a dialogue.

So, I think as Christians, we've been really bad conversationalists because I walk in and everything I defend with full gusto and full conviction. So, heading into this conversation, there's nothing I can learn from you. So, when I apply to UNC Chapel Hill, think about this for a second. I'm on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ. I had to list that as my employer. I transferred grades from a foreign theological seminary, so these people from UNC are reading my application, and I'm sure they're thinking, "Campus Crusade for what? And foreign seminary? Who is this guy?" At the very end, the last question I got from the acceptance committee — this was for my master's — the guy looked at me and he said, "So, just one quick question. Are you here to learn or to convert?" And I said, "Man, that's a great question. I'm here to learn. I really care about communication theory, and I really do wanna learn." He goes, "Great. We're gonna accept you, and we're gonna put you with Julia Wood, the top feminist theorist in the world, and let's see how this goes."

So, you know what I mean, Sean?

Sean McDowell: That's great.

Tim Muehlhoff: I thought that was a great question. And I think that's a great question to say from a non-Christian to a Christian. "Hey, is this all about you just converting me? Or are we actually gonna have a give-and-take conversation where there's a possibility I could say something that would influence you?"

Sean McDowell: But this is threatening to Christians —

Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, Sean, absolutely.

Sean McDowell: So, I should sit down and be open to change my mind on racial issues, moral issues, sexual issues? That's threatening and I'm wondering why. And tell me if you agree with this, or you would nuance it. I do this thing at church. I'll show up, put glasses on, become an atheist, take questions and resp